Limited Potential

OttawaSenatorsRule · Post by **OttawaSenatorsRule** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:17 pm

Do scouts get this wrong? Can they make a mistake, where they say 'limited potential' but another does not say that and the first one would be wrong?

Post by **B. Stinson** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:42 pm

He can definitely be wrong about his opinion.

...But he could also be right, so watch out.

P.S. Keep in mind, even the 20/20 scouts can be wrong. So don't get to trusting of their views.

OttawaSenatorsRule · Post by **OttawaSenatorsRule** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:57 pm

humm...so I can't always trust my scouts... I would assume the same can be said of my couch's reports... so whats a good way to determine a players potential to some degree of confidence...?

Post by **B. Stinson** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:45 am

OttawaSenatorsRule wrote:humm...so I can't always trust my scouts... I would assume the same can be said of my couch's reports... so whats a good way to determine a players potential to some degree of confidence...?

For me when it comes to potential, I just trust my scouts. And if more than one has scouted a particular player, I'll take the general consensus.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:16 pm

Yeah, it's usually a good idea to have more than one scout look at a player. If two scouts of similar ability give you two vastly different reports, send another scout to look at him. There could be a variance because one of the scouts so the player during a time when they were playing exceptionally good or bad but not their normal game. If a player is in a slump, your scout might not be too impressed with him. A month or two later and he could be back on top of his game.

Francois Tremblay · Post by **Francois Tremblay** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:41 pm

That's why I generally have one scout reporting about a specific league all the time, so I have constant reports on the players, and then all available scouts reporting on a specific player when I am interested in him. The more opinions you have, the better.

OttawaSenatorsRule · Post by **OttawaSenatorsRule** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:20 am

I try to get multiple scouts to see a single player.. and most of the time they agree, but sometimes they will say 'starting' and another says 'backup' for a goalie. Do the stats of your scouts 'coaching' ability make a difference in how they see a player?

Like a scout with a 10 in coaching goalie is better at scouting a goalie?

Post by **timmy_t** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:27 am

I always wondered that too ..

Post by **B. Stinson** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:12 am

That's one I've thought about as well. Haven't seen an answer on it, though.

But I always use them as if they do affect it. It feels more realistic that way... because if someone is really good at coaching goalies, then he'll know best what to look for in a given goalie.

That's how I see it, at least.

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:23 am

OttawaSenatorsRule wrote:humm...so I can't always trust my scouts... I would assume the same can be said of my couch's reports... so whats a good way to determine a players potential to some degree of confidence...?

You can trust your scouts if they are experienced professionals. Besides well-known players' potential and abilities, few other aspects that matters are determination and adaptability of your scouts. And of course, they have their own potential and limits. So, I think the best answer to regain your confidence in scouting reports is to hire good or very good scouts. Like in a real life, human resources are the most important thing in every organization. IMHO.
Besides, you can just rely on how many lines your Head Scout consistently put in his report on a specific player. Better players get more voluminous and extensive reviews. You might want to start from there. I hope it helps.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:50 pm

We've never gotten any official word on scouts' attributes other than the two "judging" ones. I know that for my scout that I have assigned to watch the "next opponent" I usually go with both Judging Ability and Tactics. I figure if he knows tactics he'll be able to give me a good read on how the team plays. I really don't know if the positional coaching attributes factor in or not. It does seem like most of the guys that have high scouting attributes have very low coaching positional attributes.

Post by **batdad** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:48 pm

B72--Next Opponent...no difference whether you use your worst or best scout. I have never had anything different either way.

Hmm..though maybe, just maybe I need to look at my scouting to help my pp? I dunno.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:57 pm

Are you sure? I feel like I've gotten more in-depth info on how my opponent plays when I've used better scouts for my next opponent.

Post by **batdad** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:08 pm

Hmm...maybe I will have to try that again. I have noticed no difference in the past.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:30 pm

IMHO Limited Potential could be right, but, that doesn't mean the guy has the right numbers in the right spots and is useful. I have a couple guys that the comp always calls useless, but they make great defensive grinders.

RyanSmythe · Post by **RyanSmythe** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:13 am

OttawaSenatorsRule wrote:Do scouts get this wrong? Can they make a mistake, where they say 'limited potential' but another does not say that and the first one would be wrong?

Nope my are always Wrong. I haven't had 1 good 1st round Pick since Zach Keane in 2015ish.

He is my only 1st round pick to pan out.
Since i have developed the Limited and so far only 2 played like that.

I have 10 forwards on my roster currently that have Won't make it in the NHL as the scouts report.
Yet 6 of them are 70+p scorer. 1 has had 2 consecutive 153+ point seasons.
Keep in mind i have 3 20 ability 20 potentiall scouts on my roster who look at all my prospects and they have said none of my Top guys will pan out.
Don't abondon all hope on "won't make it" and "could be Key some day"

I draft goofy and that may be the reason for my discrepencies.

Check a players Ava Rating points/Goals. if they are decent and the scout say 'won't make it' There is a good chance he could. if he has horrible stats he prolly won't, however nothing is absolute so the worst thing that can happen is sign them, throw them in the AHL, ECHL and see how they do their. If they do good in the ECHL move them to AHL if they do good there give them a shot. If in any league they are top point scorer give them a direct ticket to NHL. You have waivers and Release as options so don't be afraid to use them.

Post by **Shadd666** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:15 pm

Having scouts with 20 in both judging potential and ability doesn't mean they are perfect and can be trusted anytime

Even those highly talented scouts make mistakes. They just do less than the others.

As for players with high AvR, pts, goals, etc, at a junior or college level, it doesn't mean they have something left in the tank to make the big league someday. It just means that they have the skillset and/or the teammates and tactics to perform at this specific level.

And if all your scouts say that a player has limited potential, it can just be the very last scouting report who said this. You'd better check the historic of the reports (the last 10 reports are stored). Sometimes you'll see 8 or 9 reports saying the guy is a future key guy, and just 1 report saying the guy has limited potential. Yet, when you check scout by scout, they all say he is limited. It's just the fresher report, not necessarily the most accurate one, so keep a close eye on all the reports if you really want to have a comprehensive scouting. Also, sometimes, this bad report is linked with an unusual bad performance by the player on the game scouted, so you may want to have another look to either confirm or deny the last set of reports.

Also keep in mind that scouting reports for the draft can't be 100% accurate. The scouts are trying to guess how 17-18 years old kids will devellop. But their devellopement will be completed somewhere between 25-30 years old, depending on their position and the pace of their devellopement. Needless to say that it's pretty hard to guess the future one decade ahead, so there will always be mistakes. Some from your scouts, some from your own judgements.

RyanSmythe wrote:If in any league they are top point scorer give them a direct ticket to NHL.

I totally disagree with you on this point. The leading scorer of an unknown beer league lost somewhere in Hungary has probably not his place in the NHL, and will probably never have it.

And even with those who have a real NHL potential, you have to be more carefull with their devellopement. Rushing them into the big league while they are not ready can just burn them once and for all, and your promising rising star can turn to be a lifetime AHLer if you devellop him the wrong way. That's probably why you had so few 1st rounders who finally panned out with your team. Questionnable scouting + questionnable devellopement nearly always lead to questionnable players.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:32 pm

I totally disagree with you on this point. The leading scorer of an unknown beer league lost somewhere in Hungary has probably not his place in the NHL, and will probably never have it.

And even with those who have a real NHL potential, you have to be more carefull with their devellopement. Rushing them into the big league while they are not ready can just burn them once and for all, and your promising rising star can turn to be a lifetime AHLer if you devellop him the wrong way. That's probably why you had so few 1st rounders who finally panned out with your team. Questionnable scouting + questionnable devellopement nearly always lead to questionnable players.

Definitely.

In fact, I would say that no player should ever go straight to the NHL... except the Gretzky's of the world. Everyone else should spend at least one full year in the AHL to prepare them for what's next, without putting the big-time NHL spotlight on them. Because once their self-confidence is shot, they're goners.

RyanSmythe · Post by **RyanSmythe** » Thu May 15, 2008 10:15 am

I didn't mean just any league i meant ECHL or AHL

"AHL, ECHL and see how they do their. If they do good in the ECHL move them to AHL if they do good there give them a shot. If in any league they are top point scorer give them a direct ticket to NHL."

I should have used a Comma instead of a period. My bad there. I meant if they lead the AHL/ECHL they deserve a ticket to the NHL as they are probably Ready for some time their.

Post by **Shadd666** » Thu May 15, 2008 12:18 pm

As far as i know, leading one of those leagues in terms of points doesn't necessarily means that the player is ready to make the big league.

The guys are ready for the big league when your coaches and scouts tells you so, rarely before. When you think a guy is ready, ask for some coaches reports. If the report ends with something like "let's call him up" or " we should call him up" and your scouts tell you he has the actual ability of being a depth player, then you may consider bringing him up. So when you think a guy is ready, scout him 3-4 times in a row, ask for coaches' point of view, and see what everyone tells you.

In general, if my prospects have a scouting report saying that they should actually be fringe players, i send them down to the AHL. If they are just not good enough yet, it's either the ECHL or the juniors. They make the big league only when they are seen as depth players AND my coaches tell me they are ready.

Sometimes they lead the AHL in terms of points, but both my scouts and coaches don't think they are ready to move up. And the few times i brought them up despite those negative advices, they burnt out and turned out to become nobodies. Other times they are far from leading any stat in their league, but everyone says me they are ready, so i bring them up if i have the roster space to do so, and most of the time they turn out to be effectively NHL players.

You've got a staff, so use it

They are not just a bunch of stats and attributes. You've got 15 scouts, 1 head coach, 5 assistant coaches, and can also ask the opinion of your affiliate teams' coaches. That's a potential of around 20-25 advices to help you have a more precise view on a specific player. If those advices were useless, i don't think that the real teams should have so many staff members, and don't think either that those advices would have been implemented in the game

If it's there, it has probably some use...

RyanSmythe · Post by **RyanSmythe** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:10 am

I've never had a player that lead the ECHL or AHL not be NHL ready. I don't ask my scouts much because i have this unique problem of them being wrong 90% of the time. And I Don't value my coaches opinion much. since i change them yearly.

I would also like to point out before i learned the game i would take my 1st round picks and put them in the NHL and until my scouting went to hell they would be fine.

Post by **timmy_t** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:30 am

I would also like to point out before i learned the game i would take my 1st round picks and put them in the NHL and until my scouting went to hell they would be fine.

I don't understand this point. ??

Post by **Shadd666** » Fri May 16, 2008 10:48 am

Neither do I...

Btw, what database are you using, RyanSmythe? I ask because i remember that when the game came out, there were some serious issues with the scouting. At the time, you could have had a guy like Jagr being evaluated as a 3rd liner (which let very few options for the top-two lines

), and stuff like that. It was fastly corrected though (first patch, i believe). But as this DB had a declining bug attribute around 2011-12, and as you seem to be later on, i guess you've got another DB... Any edited stuff?

RyanSmythe · Post by **RyanSmythe** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:36 pm

Shadd666 wrote:Neither do I...

Btw, what database are you using, RyanSmythe? I ask because i remember that when the game came out, there were some serious issues with the scouting. At the time, you could have had a guy like Jagr being evaluated as a 3rd liner (which let very few options for the top-two lines ), and stuff like that. It was fastly corrected though (first patch, i believe). But as this DB had a declining bug attribute around 2011-12, and as you seem to be later on, i guess you've got another DB... Any edited stuff?

It was in response to the no player should go from any league right to the NHL post.

Yes its got some edited stuff in it not sure which Database it is a friend sent it to me. But if it could be the data base i will just have to download another one, give it a try and see if that is what is causing it.

Post by **Shadd666** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:33 pm

It could be a DB issue... maybe not... but maybe... Well, the only way to know this for sure is to test with a non-edited DB (or the TBL:DB, which works well too) and see how it pans out...

Keep us tuned about this... Those scouting issues are pretty weird and must be pretty frustrating...

Limited Potential

Limited Potential

Re: Limited Potential