The official 2007-08 NHL Season discussion thread.

[Hypnotist]

I HATE THE WINGS!

I know, but there is always hope to save your soul by accepting the True Faith!

...(sorry Hypno)

No you're not

Unfortunately, I would lay money that there will be no suspension. The NHL doesn't have the yarbles to slap a suspension for this incident. Case in point...last year Mr. Pronger goes head hunting TWICE in the playoffs and he gets a measley 1 game each. So I would be amazed if a BC two-hander will "justify" (in the leagues eyes) a suspension.

[Shadd666]

Yup, stupid and useless cheapshot by Ribeiro

I hate both the Wings and the Stars, so i can't that i hope any of them win the series, but i clearly don't want to see that kind of cheapshots anymore, so i hope the Stars will loose (well, they will... if not now, they will in the Finals )

However, i doubt Ribeiro will have a big suspension... It's the NHL, and 1 game is their maximum limit for that kind of stuff. Ozzie didn't bleed, didn't need to go to hospital, wasn't knocked out cold, so i don't think we'll see more than a one game suspension...

[B. Stinson]

This doesn't have anything to do with how strong or weak the fan base is in Detroit city. It has to do with the almost apocalyptically bad local economy. Many local citizens just can't afford to take the family to an NHL game, even the $9 cheap seats. With climbing gas prices and the ever declining auto industry Detroit city is in for a bad time.

Don't worry, it's not just Detroit. In any city, these tickets are entirely too expensive... especially in a league begging for customers.

If they can't afford to lower the prices, then stop throwing away so much on these players. I have yet to see a current player who deserves a salary over $1M. Maybe Crosby and Ovechkin deserve $1M, but no one else.

[batdad]

I accepted the true faith years ago. Then I renounced it. Then I renounced it again. See that guy above me posting about prices in Philly? And bad salaries.

That is the faith I accept, renounce, and accept, renounce. I have such a love-hate relationship with the Flyers I should be shot.

I grew up worshipping Bobby Clarke as a player. A guy who never made excuses and did anything to win. Then Bobby became a manager. And had tons of excuses. Then he left...and I cheered a bit for the team again. Then he came back, and boom excuses. I was so widdled.

Then ... he left. And Holmgren came in and Stevens. And well I was just about to think about cheering for them again...and mr. excuse starts popping off about stuff again. Now that he is in a job where he really should not have any affect on hockey decisions, because he should leave Holmgren to it...I would love to like the Flyers again.

But it is going to take awhile. Til I am sure he is gone. ANd since the Flyers were involved in so much cheap rubbish this season...I am pretty sure he is still there.

So yeah, my faith...she has been tested.


I think I will stick to Junior hockey. Better hockey anyway. More desparate, and more errors cause the kids are still learning and trying to make things happen instead of trying to STOP things from happening.

This is the reason the NHL is so putrid in general...the players are told they have to go out and STOP things from happening. They should be told to go out AND MAKE things happen.

/end of yet another useless and pointless batdad rant.

[timmy_t]

This doesn't have anything to do with how strong or weak the fan base is in Detroit city. It has to do with the almost apocalyptically bad local economy. Many local citizens just can't afford to take the family to an NHL game, even the $9 cheap seats. With climbing gas prices and the ever declining auto industry Detroit city is in for a bad time.

I understand that, totally. My wife's from Ohio, and her family is still there. They've had one factory after another closed down and their jobs shipped to Mexico. (Thanks NAFTA!)



The thing that makes me mad is the season ticket holders in the lower bowl. Those seats are always empty! Game 7, Stanley Cup Finals, and there will be empty seats. Sell them on Stub-hub or some other online ticket outlet already. I wish I was some Fat Cat and could afford to sit at home and not use, sell, or give my tickets away...


I didn't get to watch the game tonight, I had to work, but I heard them talking about the two-handed chop. I wonder if people would still do things like that if they took the instigator rule away?

Batdad?

[Taloncarde]

You know, I've been impressed with Ribiero since he came here, and was pretty sure that was him with the "dive" that led to a game winning goal for the other team in the playoffs years ago. I thought maybe he had recovered from that time, but maybe the playoffs just bring that out in him.

What he did was not called for, even if Ozzie did "instigate" the action with his blocker or elbow. I don't know how many games, but he should get at least one. That kind of cheap play isn't something I like to see in the Stars (That's a philly thing! j/k )

[Devils88]

i've seen some playoff games live on nasn europe and i must say i still can not live with the new rules. penalties for "holding and hooking" are ridiculous most of the time. i bet on a final detroit vs. pittsburgh. both are the best on the power play, and the pp decides these playoff games. not that this is new, but before the "new rules" a holding penalty was really a holding for 3-5 seconds. not like now when you can't touch a opponent for a second. (it's like soccer with all these divers) so these two speedy and skilled teams have a big advantage. also the referees want both to go to the finals. (detroits 5on3 PP in game one, goalie interference from holmström on goal 3....pens vs. rangers series was awful officiated in favor of the pens).
can someone tell me why the videoroom in toronto is not used more often???

[batdad]

Because like anything in Toronto...the video room is USELESS.

And it can only by rule be used on goals. It would slow the game down to a worse than baseball pace to use it any more often than it is.

I like the thought behind the new rules (which are not new rules, just that the refs have been told to enforce the rules as written), and I know what you mean about the stupid diving. I think that the players are learning still. SOme of the old vets like Derian Hatcher..will never change. it is really going to take some time for the game to be played the way it should be with the new rules.

First have to get rid of the old farts who do it out of 20 or 40 years of habit (Chelios)

Then have to filter this down all the way to minor hockey and have referees capable out there to make the call ALL the time.

Then have to have the entire NHL full of players who have played the game this way for all of their lives..so yep 15-20 years from now.

Then have to (starting now) enforce diving-unsports penalites. Refs should be told to go with their instinct and call it even if they think there is a chance it was not a dive. Just call the dive. Anything that appears to be one must be called. Just like anytime it appears that a player may have taken his hand off his stick and touched a guy with his free hand is called.

YOU HAVE TO CALL IT ALL THE TIME!
Then..it will stop. You have to call it in a 2nd OT. You have to call it in the last 10 seconds of a game (like Brendan Morrow last night)

Always make the call...hook, hold, dive.

It is a painful process..but if it works..15-20 years from now we will see someone with Gretzky like numbers. But not til then. Won't happen.

[B. Stinson]

penalties for "holding and hooking" are ridiculous most of the time.

And the funny thing is that most of these calls are for things that didn't actually obstruct the play - like a stick getting near a puck carrier's waist or hands.

The whole point of them tightening-up the calls is to discourage obstruction of attacks(and thus potential goals)... yet, completely stopping the play on some of these "infractions" is proving to be far more obstructing than what they're calling.

[B. Stinson]

And this "inconclusive" nonsense strikes again, as Pittsburgh is disallowed an obvious goal.

And this time, it's their 12 year-old lord and savior who gets screwed by it. Nice one NHL!

[Shadd666]

I agree that sometimes the refs are calling penalties on stuff that didn't obstruct the play. But well, just like the players do, the refs are learning those new rules (or, like batdad mentionned, those existing rules). This adaptation time means mistakes. It will -hopefully- get better with time.

As for this Pens goal disallowed last night... The rule states the review must be conclusive. And it couldn't be conclusive because of Biron's glove hiding the goal-line. Not conclusive = no goal. That's the rule. And therefore the refs made the right call according to the rule, even if i think the puck went in.

But what really bugged me on this one was the time they took to make a decision. It was pretty obvious after a few reviews that they couldn't have any conclusive view, and therefore couldn't call it a goal. It should have take just one minute at max. Not the 5 or 6 minutes it took.

[Taloncarde]

I think their definition of conclusive is pretty stupid though. The puck is going across the goal line, Biron's gove obscures the line but the puck keeps going. Logically if the puck was 99 % across the line before the glove came over, and the puck kept moving before he snatched it back, glove or no glove it was 100 percent across.

But yes, the review did take way too long. At least we aren't back in the skate in the crease era.

[Devils88]

again a question about the video room:
ok it's only used to decide if its a goal or not. but who decides if they take the scene to the video room??? the refs i think.
why wasn't the 3rd detroit goal in GM1 reviewed?? everyone saw holmstrom was standing in the paint - so no goal.

so do the refs decide or the players or the coaches????

BTW: i understand the argument of "learning process, but it's 2 years now and they should whistle the same infractions for BOTH teams. that's what bothers me the most. i'm no fan of all 4 teams remaining so i'm very neutral, but i saw all 4 conference finals and every time had the feeling detroit and pittsburgh got favored a LOT.

the most stupid call was the "goalie interference" from briere last night. he was holded from orpik about 3-4 seconds behind the net, and then pushed into fleury. this has nothing to do with learning process, that's simple a heavy favor for the pens. if i was briere in that situation, i guarantee i would have got a heavy suspension from the nhl. you work your ass of 90 games to reach the finals only to see the refs wearing your opponents jersey......
in that case it was clear cheating by the ref.

EDIT: the pens goal should have been counted. but so is this (stupid) rule.
an another rule says if the player stands in the paint with his skate the goal MUST be disallowed.

[B. Stinson]

As for this Pens goal disallowed last night... The rule states the review must be conclusive. And it couldn't be conclusive because of Biron's glove hiding the goal-line. Not conclusive = no goal. That's the rule. And therefore the refs made the right call according to the rule, even if i think the puck went in.

I know, and that's what I'm saying - the rule they had to follow has once again proven itself to be a ridiculous rule.

[Shadd666]

i understand the argument of "learning process, but it's 2 years now and they should whistle the same infractions for BOTH teams. that's what bothers me the most. i'm no fan of all 4 teams remaining so i'm very neutral, but i saw all 4 conference finals and every time had the feeling detroit and pittsburgh got favored a LOT.

I can only agree with that, unfortunately. However, Det and Pit were the home teams... With so much pressure in those games, the refs might have been following the masses... And at 18,000 vs 19, the result is pretty obvious. It sucks nonetheless. But if we now see refs more in favor of Dallas and Philly, it would just be that the refs can't handle the pressure of the fans. It doesn't make their performances better, but it would be less a shame than being really in favor of a specific team. But i'm afraid there's a real preference. And i'm more afraid that it doesn't come from the refs themselves, but from the league... I still hope i'm wrong though, but without a lot of illusions...

But clearly, the refereeing was not equal for both teams. Detroit and Pittsburgh have been largely favored. And i'm not as neutral as you on those ones, as i'm not 50/50... I'd say i'm 51/49 for Detroit (it was 50/50 before Ribeiro's cheapshot) and 75/25 for the Pens. So it's not like if i was defending the loosing teams. I'm just sad of seeing the show being stolen by the refs, no matter who wins.

Here in France, we're used to say that "a good ref is a ref that you don't see". Which means that he does his job so well that you don't even notice he is there, as you're totally absorbed by the action. Unfortunately, it's rarely the case in the NHL...

Which leads me to wonder: anyone knows what is the formation received by the NHL refs? Because i don't think it's a men problem (ie the refs themselves), but the way they are formed to do their job that needs tweaking/improvements.

As for the fact that's it's 2 years now that we have those (wrongly called) new rules, regarding the "learning process", well... Some players still make holdings and hookings that are now strictly forbidden, even 2 years later... So if some humans aren't adapted yet, i don't see why others should be... Plus, as mentionned by batdad, they didn't play all their life with those rules, making it harder to adapt. And it's probably the same for the refs, even if it's on a different scale.

[batdad]

Here is the ultimate problem with officials.

People whine and complain and threaten and yell at and abuse them. AT EVERY SINGLE LEVEL OF THE GAME>

If they are 10 years old and get hollered at by some stupid old man (or woman) in the crowd..why the heck would they bother reffing. It is not worth it. EVen for the $20 they often get paid.

So...this kid gets yelled at at 10 years old. And quits. How many do you think that happens with? How many do you think listen to people whine about corrupt refereeing and how hopeless refs are. EVERY ONE. So...you get 30 good skating, refs who understand the game and have a good view or vision of the ice. 15 get yelled at. They quit. Then you have 15 left. Then the next year you get 15 newbies...and they don't get it. And the other 15 quit. So you end up with diddly squat all for refs.

So...

Point 1....beating horse...the refs do NOT EVER decide the outcome of a game. Players do (don't bother arguing with me, y'all should know by now I will tell ya where ta go on that one)

Point 2...parents and other spectators need to stop harping on refs at kids games.

Point 3...parents and other spectators need to stop harping on refs at junior level games.

Point 4...parents and other spectators need to stop harping on refs at NHL level, or senior pro leagues.

Point 5...internet fan boards, media people, fans in general, the TV, the radio, the newspaper...and coaches/managers and everyone need to stop harping on referees.

Until this happen, the people best suited to be referees may not take it up, or continue with it if they start.

there is not a ref out there that gets into it with the idea of screwing around any team or player. A team can bring getting the short end of the stick on them though. so can a player. Yap at the ref, threaten call him a dillhole, criticize him constantly...mock him or whine....well...that ref is WAY more likely to see the things that are stupid and call them against that player or team.

So...if you think the Pens are being favoured. Well..I will tell you right now..that means John Stevens, his staff and his players and fans are widdling off the referees more than the Penguins and their staff, fans, and players. COnsidering who Sid is, and his age..this one actually surprises me. Usually he would be seen as the whiner...and with Ruutu there...Philly must be doing a great job of being dumb.

So...if you think the Wings are being favoured that means that the fans, players, staff,and media of the Stars are being dumber and widdling off the officials more than the Wings. Honestly, hardly a shocker here....Modano has been known around the league as a baby/whiner since the beginning of time. Morrow plays on the edge, and the Dallas team is running all over the ice (at slower speeds than the superior Wing skaters) taking shots and losing position doing so. So really...duh...of course it seems the Wings are better.


Once again, it never ceases to amaze me how people think a ref is favoring some team over another. teams get what they sew from the refs. They really do. And honestly, although the refs ain't perfect, and may not even be the best ones around.....(Swedish guy who missed the side of the net thing in WC...and was fired) ...they do their best.

Yes there are isolated cases of refs fixing games (at least in the go to prison and don't past go basketball league), but they are so few and far between...and completely unable to be substantiated...that anyone who tries is just being silly. Period.

[Shadd666]

I generally totally agree with you about refs, but yesterday's game between Pens and Flyers... There was some calls against the Flyers that were perfect non-sense Some should be explained by the fact that hockey is very fast, and refs don't have the video reviews that the fans have. Plus, well, they are humans, so will make mistakes at some point, that's normal and perfectly understandable.

Maybe it was just a bad night for that particular ref on that particular match. Refs have their nights off afterall, just like players. But 2 games in a row? With 2 different refs? Maybe just a bad run of luck for the Flyers. I really hope it's the case, as i globaly have respect for the refs (no ref = no game, so if you love the game, the equation is pretty simple ).

Anyhow, there's one thing that will always remain: no matter how good or bad the ref has been, he can't be an excuse for the loosing team. I think anyone has already seen teams winning even when the refs seemed to make the calls against them. It's perfectly possible. It just demands a bit more heart and a harder work. And if you can't give more heart or make that extra work, then you can forget about winning the Cup, no matter how the refs are. So they are clearly not a valuable excuse for loosers. You loose because you're not good enough to win. And in this case, both Stars and Flyers weren't good enough to win their games, and they would have lost even with a different way of reffing. But the games might have been funnier to watch for those who don't really bother about who wins

Oh well, those games are in the books now, and both Dallas and Philly can still win their series, so it's up to them to do their job, nothing less. They still have their destinies in hand. Always have it. Always will have.

[Hypnotist]

Timmy_T & batdad: How did you guys like the goalie interference wave-off of the Wings first goal? That was a reputation call against Holmstrom if I've ever saw one. He never touched Turco or even went in the paint. Sheesh...this series should be over. Now I've got to root for Philly to avoid the sweep so the Pens don't get extra time to rest before the finals.

[Taloncarde]

That was totally a make up call for game 1

I think what they are saying is that Holmstrom was keeping Turco from making a play on the puck because of how close he was. Game 1's goal shouldn't have counted, but last nights goal should have.

Thanks to the review system, that is a call not eligible for video review, so the officials were probably told if there was another close one like that to waive it off.

[Shadd666]

This goal should have counted. But wouldn't have change the face of the game. Detroit was slipping, and even with this goal they would have loose the game. So you can bash the refs as long as you want, but the Red Wings would have never win this match, as they never made any effort to win it, contrary to Dallas. So if this series isn't over, it's only 200% Detroit's fault. Nothing to deal with the refs here. However, i believe Detroit will wake up for game 5 at home to end the series.

Btw, game 1's goal was legal too. No interference, no-one in the crease. Goal. If the Stars are unable to clean the crease and protect Turco, it's their problem, not the refs one.

I mean, they know Holmström will be in front of the net to screen Turco. They are not discovering it. It's his style of play and it's known to be pretty efficient. Yet they don't seem to have any "anti-Holmström plan" to diminish his annoying presence in the crease. They pay the price for it. So blame the refs as long as you want, but the answer is clearly elsewhere.

[timmy_t]

Timmy_T & batdad: How did you guys like the goalie interference wave-off of the Wings first goal? That was a reputation call against Holmstrom if I've ever saw one. He never touched Turco or even went in the paint. Sheesh...this series should be over. Now I've got to root for Philly to avoid the sweep so the Pens don't get extra time to rest before the finals.

Yeah, you're right there... Don't worry though, they'll win tomorrow. As much as I hate the Red Wings, they are proving that they should be in the finals.

Don't root for Philly though.

[batdad]

Never saw the game, never saw the hilites. 430 on a weekday is not a good time to watch hockey around my house.

[bigargon]

alas another season without a cup in Philly. I was a good fun year. the first hockey season I could enjoy in 3 years.

all i can say i will root for what ever team faces the Penguins. i have this nightmare of Pittsburg winning the cup then their being 2 million commericals with crosby in NHL attempt to be "more marketable"

[B. Stinson]

Well, I know we won't have to worry about any commercials... the NHL can't afford to make any.

[Taloncarde]

A sign that VS is a horrible carrier... The same 6 commercials aired every game, every break. If I have to see that Mike's Hard Lemonade commercial again...

Stars looked extremely flat in game 6, and I can't even guess what Turco was trying to do on Zetterbergs sh goal. It looked almost like he was planning to skate out and try and poke check the puck away and then changed his mind and never set up.