Official thread: The Future of EHM

Post by **B. Stinson** » Fri May 30, 2008 1:00 am

newsguyone wrote: If 07 would have had online features, I bet there would be 100s of leagues like ours.

I bet there wouldn't.

Why not? Because SI already ran a poll about EHM online. It's results showed that very few people cared about online play. That's why they made no progress from EHM 2005 - it would have been a bunch of work for only a tiny fraction of the fanbase.

In fact, there was an unofficial poll that came up later, and someone by the name of 'newsguyone' summed his own thread up pretty well when he said: "Looks like you guys really don't care about online play."

V4ND3RP00L · Post by **V4ND3RP00L** » Fri May 30, 2008 5:15 am

The only big way that you would see major online gameplay with this game is if it made it's way onto consoles.

Such as what EA is doing with NFL Head Coach.

It will be released on the 360 and PS3 very soon and trust me, they've had the last 3 to 4 years to work on it and get it ready.

Post by **Shadd666** » Fri May 30, 2008 3:58 pm

I think that the big lack of interest from the community to the online function is due to the people that make that community. You don't find a lot of teens with tons of free hours ahead of them to play online games together. The EHM community is mainly made of adults who either have a job or commitments at university. Both are time consuming and can't really be skipped to play EHM. Sure, some people play at work

But globaly, people don't have that much of free time to play the game, and therefore it becomes difficult to find free time together for some online play. And as most of us just don't have enough time for online play, we simply just care about it, and prefer a better solo game.

If a poll was running between improvements in the AI and improvements for the online play, you'll see a huge win for a better AI. Same for an improved 2D engine or more tactical depth, or a more detailed approach to the training. The online interest is very weak in the community, even if it's certainly a very enjoyable experience. But when you don't have time for it, you just skip it.

Anyway, this debate has absolutely no reason to exist. The devellopement is on hold, so i don't really see the point of talking about what should be or not the best way to devellop the game.

It's actually a total waste of time.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Fri May 30, 2008 5:41 pm

The EHM community is mainly made of adults who either have a job or commitments at university.

Which brings up another point - the type of game.

EHM's fanbase is adults or college kids because, in addition to Shadd's point, it's a text-based sim involving thought and strategy. That's not the action/adventure type of game that the typical 12 to 17 year-old online community plays. That's most-likely why the biggest games are all stuff like World of Warcraft, and Halo.

Even look at Football Manager. A crazy popular game; yet has a very weak online presence.

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:16 am

B. Stinson wrote:
newsguyone wrote: If 07 would have had online features, I bet there would be 100s of leagues like ours.
I bet there wouldn't.

Why not? Because SI already ran a poll about EHM online. It's results showed that very few people cared about online play. That's why they made no progress from EHM 2005 - it would have been a bunch of work for only a tiny fraction of the fanbase.

In fact, there was an unofficial poll that came up later, and someone by the name of 'newsguyone' summed his own thread up pretty well when he said: "Looks like you guys really don't care about online play."

OOOH.
A Poll on a message board!!
Great evidence Stinson.

There are at least 25 EHM 05 online leagues that I am aware of ...and thats a game thats like 4 years old now. A game that should have been made obsolete, and wasn't

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:21 am

batdad wrote:

You may not have mentioned it before newsguyone, but this has been beat to death over and over.

Everyone who has read here for two years, and anyone who has read at SI knows how you feel. We get that you are upset about the online...

but at this point we are tired of hearing about it. The rest of us have moved on...lets not get back into this endless silliness again.

Thanks

As long as there is hope for a new EHM game,
there is hope for online play.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:41 pm

newsguyone wrote: OOOH.
A Poll on a message board!!
Great evidence Stinson.

There are at least 25 EHM 05 online leagues that I am aware of ...and thats a game thats like 4 years old now. A game that should have been made obsolete, and wasn't

I think it would be fair to say that virtually all of EHM's following has internet access. This assumption is based on the fact that EHM 2007 was download-only (with the exception of a Swedish retailer that sold CD copies). To download EHM, you have to be aware of the SI Games website as that's where you download it. Thus I think a poll on the SI EHM Forums will have sufficient exposure to EHM's fanbase and provide adequate evidence of the general consensus of those fans.

I think that given the choice, most EHM users would choose the improvement of the gameplay over the improvement of its online play. EHM 2005 might still be used by a number of online leagues but I imagine it's a very small number compared to the amount of people still playing EHM 07.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:09 pm

OOOH.
A Poll on a message board!!
Great evidence Stinson.

What more do you want?

It was an official poll, run by the developers themselves on the game's official forum. There's nothing more the small team could have done to get the opinions of their core fan-base.

If you're not happy with that or the resulting opinions, then tough beans. Either make the best of what we have, or go find something else to do.

dave1927p · Post by **dave1927p** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:00 am

im not going to get my hopes up. Im fairly confident that someone will come out with a hockey management game like this within the next 4-5 years but at that time i might not be interesed in games anymore. Unfortunatly for me besides EHM07 i have little to no interest in games anymore so i don't know if i will still be interested at that time. (My guess is i still will be) I hope the boys behind EHM comes out with it because the quality of this game, for its time is fantastic....although without its loyal remaining fans it would be extreamly outdated.

I hope that there is an "NHL Expantion Draft" and being able to relocate teams. I always disliked in EHM playing until 2020 and still seeing the same teams, like Atlanta and Nashville, despite the fact they have lost so much money.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:16 pm

I've quoted this post in the e-license thread but think it is also relevant to this thread too:

Graeme Kelly wrote:We didn't really have much choice when picking a distribution partner, we've released versions of EHM with various digital download systems and they're all pretty much the same. We couldn't afford a boxed release and we picked eLicense because we needed something to allow us to release the game. Unfortunately would have expired, so I'm not sure that we could apply any pressure to them any more (if issues came up), but it's not really my job and never has been so maybe I'm wrong.

Sega are actually meant to provide the support for EHM and all of SI's games(we are just the developer, a small company in comparison to Sega). I doubt now that anyone at Sega support would be familiar with EHM though, which is pretty much why we've kept these forums for the game even though it's been dropped for over a year now and that there is nobody else working on it and no new sales. There are enough knowledgable people on the forums to deal with any non-licensing issues (which eLicense should be covering for EHM for as long as they are operating, as far as I know).

Unfortunately removing eLicense altogether is also not an option - you may have seen when we released the last patch that we couldn't do any more because of licensing. These licencing agreements prevent us from releasing any further updates to the game at all (unless we relicense, and we won't get a license from the NHL for a game that is out of date). Even if we could do that, we'd need to pay for and license a standard copy protection system (if as suggested, it works like FM). Releasing the game for free is also not an option, I've already asked, and we're not even allowed to release an update to the game with an updated eLicense library file either (if they fixed any bugs in their system).

As for whether SI reads the forum, then the answer is pretty much no. Anyone working on EHM at the "end" is now approaching 18 months in their new roles; the simple answer is that it's not our job any more, whether we care or not we just don't have the time. Well, I can't speak for Riz but I certainly don't . There are enough knowledgeable users on the forum plus mne2 the fine upstanding moderator whom along with a bunch of you guys from beta testing days have MSN details for Riz and myself should anything major come up that isn't a licensing issue. I don't think the situation is as bleak as you suggest, if someone ended up with a problem that needed us to look at then I would hope we'd be able to assist. I've completely forgotten how the game works now to be honest, I didn't even get time to play this version because I spent all my spare time putting extra stuff in before "the end".

This post was originally made here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread ... ost1612990

dave1927p · Post by **dave1927p** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:23 am

You have to pay to view the SI forums, don't you? I don't know why they are doing that. Is there a sticky thread on TBL in their forums?

It seems pretty clear from that post that they have moved on and a new EHM from SI will most likely never happen. I for one think that it could be sucessful if they just didn't get any lisences but i guess they are just focusing on soccer and don't have the time, resources, and patience for making a new game.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:42 am

Ultimately it's a business. EHM was a loss-maker and it's just not worth the risk, time and effort trying to make another version. When they have FM and FM Live (a MMPORG soccer management game) which make plenty of money, there's no point gambling on a potential loss-maker (i.e. EHM).

According to Graeme Kelly, it would take three Ristos 18 months to recreate EHM from scratch (i.e. make a freeware equivalent). Thus with just one Riz it would take 4.5 years, full time. Imagine how long it would take him as a part-time hobby!

I think the only likelihood of another EHM is if another company decides to give it a go and perhaps purchases the rights to EHM from SI. Also, I think Riz would have to get on board to ensure the game continues to be of the quality we've come to expect. Without Riz then we could end up with a game where you set the prices of the hot-dogs, etc

Post by **getzlaf15** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:11 pm

Surely the purchasers wouldn't even need to buy licenses, just make a "faked" game as they did with the NCAA this game. The fan base would change the database to make the game authentic. We just need a way of changing the hard codes, which obviously cant be done!

Still a lot of time and effort to make a faked game though.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:33 pm

If someone bought the actual code to the latest release of EHM, took out the hardcoded bits, went with a fakes database, and went with a full editor that allowed you to change those bits that were hardcoded, you could have a great product ready in no time. I wonder how intent SI (or would it be Sega) is on holding onto EHM and whatever work might've gone into it? I mean, if the code were released back to Riz with the stipulation that he not include the old database with the licensed info, would it really take that long to put out a new version? Think OOTP. Wasn't that brought in to SI but then the creator left SI and retained his game without having to start from scratch?

dave1927p · Post by **dave1927p** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:06 am

i don't think it's that simple. It would still take a ton of work, time and money, and since Riz is coding for SI for a living i don't think he would want to come home and do the same thing on his spare time.

Markus from ootp didn't like where the game was going and they had to part ways. He took a huge risk leaving a somewhat steady job to work on his own game and i guess Riz didn't feel comfortable doing that.

I would love to see Riz work on the game and make everything customizable so as the NHL rules change we are able to change them, along with the avg goals per game, draft age etc. It would make EHM last so much longer and be alot more fun.

I still can't help to think that Riz still wants to bring back EHM because the love for hockey sims couldn't just go away but its been around 4 years since ehm has been shutdown and i haven't seen Riz even mention the game or talk about it.....but we can always hope.

thunderbug · Post by **thunderbug** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:15 am

Uh Dave it hasn't been about 4 years its only been about 2 since the last version.

Post by **getzlaf15** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:21 pm

bruins72 wrote:If someone bought the actual code to the latest release of EHM, took out the hardcoded bits, went with a fakes database, and went with a full editor that allowed you to change those bits that were hardcoded, you could have a great product ready in no time. I wonder how intent SI (or would it be Sega) is on holding onto EHM and whatever work might've gone into it?

When you say bought the codes. Who owns them and how much would they be? Or is that too hard to tell. Everyone here at TBL should all put money into a virtual pot and buy them.

But i'm guessin it would be a lot of money? I don't think workload would be a problem. There are many TBLer's that take up their good time investing projects on an "old" game.

sjsharkz · Post by **sjsharkz** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:31 pm

getzlaf15 wrote:
bruins72 wrote:If someone bought the actual code to the latest release of EHM, took out the hardcoded bits, went with a fakes database, and went with a full editor that allowed you to change those bits that were hardcoded, you could have a great product ready in no time. I wonder how intent SI (or would it be Sega) is on holding onto EHM and whatever work might've gone into it?
When you say bought the codes. Who owns them and how much would they be? Or is that too hard to tell. Everyone here at TBL should all put money into a virtual pot and buy them. But i'm guessin it would be a lot of money? I don't think workload would be a problem. There are many TBLer's that take up their good time investing projects on an "old" game.

Depending on how much it is, I would be willing to put in my share of dollars if the oppurtunity arises!

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:13 pm

I have no idea who owns the game code. It could be SI, it could be SEGA, and it might (but it's highly unlikely) even be Riz. Riz brought the Eastside Hockey Manager name with him to SI but the game was rewritten from the ground up when he joined them. He didn't re-use his old freeware code. I also recall that they used some of SI's code as a basis to build from. For that reason alone, I'm guessing it belongs to SI. I'm betting Riz had a different deal in place to bring EHM to SI than the OOTP guy did.

By no means do I think it would be a simple, quickie fix to convert EHM to an all faked DB and make the hardcoded bits editable. I'm just saying it wouldn't be the 3 or 4 year job that someone estimated it would take for Riz to rewrite the game from scratch.

Post by **Alessandro** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:01 pm

bruins72 wrote: It could be SI, it could be SEGA, and it might (but it's highly unlikely) even be Riz.

Impossible. Knowing the SI, I would say that at 80% of probability it is in possess of SEGA

Post by **archibalduk** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:51 pm

I imagine SEGA own the image rights but SI own the actual code. That was how it was between Eidos and SI with regards to Championship Manager.

Post by **Alessandro** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:20 pm

archibalduk wrote:I imagine SEGA own the image rights but SI own the actual code. That was how it was between Eidos and SI with regards to Championship Manager.

Yes, but look ... Eidos was way less interferencing with the game's development i believe. I think last FM turns into a more arcade game is a SEGA decision

dave1927p · Post by **dave1927p** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:56 pm

thunderbug wrote:Uh Dave it hasn't been about 4 years its only been about 2 since the last version.

it feels longer lol

I think that almost all the members would be down with putting down a reasonable amount of money to get the rights to the game but i don't think it will happen. Juts say if it did then what? There would need to be someone with the same vision willing to put alot of hours in on it to unfake, uncode/change ect. What would happen then? Who will officially own the game? Will Riz want to sell the code? Does SI want to sell it? Im sure for the right price, but whats the right price? I think we all know that this isn't going to happen lol it would be nice.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:14 pm

Will Riz want to sell the code? Does SI want to sell it?

It's unfortunate for us fans, but they're only logical option is to lock the game away somewhere to collect dust. If they sold it to anyone, they make it possible for the game to be developed into a big hit... and suddenly they're playing second fiddle to their former code.

Plus, keeping it gives them the option to come back to it in the future if they need to.

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:09 am

Did SI take down the EHM boards? I went to the SI website and the only game on there is FM 2009. No EHM, No OOTP, nothing but futbol! I followed the Sega link but didn't see anything there either.

Going to www.eastsidehockeymanager.net and clicking the forums link and get a "Not Found" error. Is EHM officially dead and buried?