Offical Tactics Thread: General / Even Strength

matt44 · Post by **matt44** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:56 pm

cheers, thanks alot.

souamort · Post by **souamort** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:34 am

Just wondering, I use line tactics, and one day I have Offense at 4 stars, the next day, exact same line, it will only have 3 stars. Happens with all lines in all categories. Why does this happen, and what can i do to stop it from happening, or improve the amount of time its at its highest star rating.

selne · Post by **selne** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:02 am

souamort wrote:Just wondering, I use line tactics, and one day I have Offense at 4 stars, the next day, exact same line, it will only have 3 stars. Happens with all lines in all categories. Why does this happen, and what can i do to stop it from happening, or improve the amount of time its at its highest star rating.

The stars reflect the unit's overall ability, defensemen included.
I guess you made changes to your 1st line defensive pairing.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:35 pm

I also changes depending on how those players are currently performing, IIRC.

souamort · Post by **souamort** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:58 pm

I didn't change any of the lines, defense included. even the goalie was the same.

selne · Post by **selne** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:09 pm

souamort wrote:I didn't change any of the lines, defense included. even the goalie was the same.

Mayby you have an older player on your first line whose attributes have dropped?
But just like Bruins72 said it could be connected with their performance.

mtsouth · Post by **mtsouth** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:38 pm

Change the system?

Playing as the Canes in my third year and my top line of Ladd-Staal-Hossa (signed as FA) is tearing things up, but the rest of my team is struggling. Gleason is playing well and has good #s since he's been on the ice with the big three. My team is currently 20-5-3 which I know is very good. My concern is that the team is too top heavy, much like the Senators and that come playoff time, if my top line can't score, the team is in trouble. Before this year, my 2nd and even 3rd lines were able to keep the scoring pretty balanced. My 2nd line is Fehr(acquired from Caps)-Brindy-Vrbata/Williams. Last season, Vrbata was with Ladd and Stall on the 1st line. I think all 5 of Staal, Ladd, Vrbata, Brindy, and Williams averaged over a PPG. This season, only the Big 3 are in that range. I started the year with Vrbata on Line 3 to keep Fehr-Brindy-Williams in tact, but Williams is doing nothing and Vrbata ain't much better. Switching them seems to have helped some. The 3rd line also has Scott Walker and Leino (signed as FA). I'm tempted to take Sutherby off my 4th line and let him see if he get things going on the 3rd line with Williams and Walker as somewhat of a pseduo grit/scoring line. Sutherby has been playing on the 4th line with Betts and Weinhandl (who I love and give PP time to).

Any thoughts on what I should do? Part of me thinks it's not broke (the team is winning) so don't change it. The other knows we've not won a Cup and I'd like to position us for the best shot. I've never had much success rolling out Defensive forward lines even with guys like Sutherby, Ortmyer, Dingman, and Betts on board. My team is routinely outhit each game, even thought my D guys are pretty solid (Gleason, Eminger, S Morrison, Ossi V, Leetch - 40 years old and getting PP time, Mike Van Ryn). Eminger had a Lidstrom like year last season and has been ok this year. Gleason has stepped it up since he's been getting time with the first line a lot. PP and PK are both in top 5.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:08 pm

Next time I start a thread and say I can't find the answer anywhere after looking around, maybe I won't get such a rude response (second bad experience from the same mod I might add)

Anyway, I'll take a guess this is where he wanted me to post, so a bit of copying and pasting my thread into here is in order I think

----------------------------------

Ok, I'm in my 5th season and although I did manage 1 cup success in my second year, I'm now getting really frustrated as I can't get any results out of my team. I know I havn't got such a good team as I had before, a lot of young players coming through. My problems are knowing how to set the lines to get a balance between developing the youths and producing results, and setting the tactics for whatever I come up with. Here's my team as I've set it up most of the year...

Goalies - Nabokov & Weekes

Defence
Brewer - Pronger
Witt - Niedermayer
Vaananen - Boynton

Forwards
Wolski - Stastny - St. Louis
Hodgson - Stamkos - Kane
McCauley - Richardson - Ortemayer
Dingman - Hollweg - Wilson

Ok so on the development point, I could do better having Hodgson and Stamkos on the 4th line as they're in their rookie seasons now they're not eligable for the CHL's anymore, but I did that last season with Travares who didn't enjoy it and didn't really develop, so he's in the AHL this year developing nicely. I started off with Hogdson and Stamkos on the third line, but the coaches were saying they would develop better with more ice-time, so I moved them up to the second after about 50 games and the results have dropped off a bit although they were nothing special before. I was looking at a low playoff position through the first half of the season, but trailed off on games 55-70 with a 4-11 record. At 76 games I was in 10th and not looking good, and as this was the second year of this sort of thing happening, I decided to just let the AI pick lines and everything for me, randomly picked the default strategy of neutral zone trap and played quickly through the five games, won them all, and got a playoff spot. It's really annoying that I've spent 5 seasons playing with this team and in 5 games the AI seemed to crack it, although I know it was probably just lucky to win them all, I've been on plenty of 5 game winning streaks with my team, always followed by 5 game losing streaks.

I'm just looking for a guide of some sorts with my tactics - I've read through the guide put together on this forum twice now, and although its good at what it does, its far to simple to really help me with my team. I understand what things did which in the past I never really got, but that hasn't helped me pick some good tactics. I did put some new tactics together around game 40 after reading on here, and they worked pretty well, 6-1 in they're first 7 games, but since then they faltered and I started tinkering again to no avail.

A big question I have is how can I both put together tactics that best suit my team, whilst also not using the same tactics all season to stop me getting countered. What should I be changing to be un-predictable to the other sides, and what should I keep the same because I want to play to my teams strengths. Knowing the best tactics to set I struggle with enough, but knowing how to change them about over the season to keep winning is impossible to me!

My main two questions are knowing how much to play the youths to help them develop but keep winning, and the one I just said about how to change tactics about. I could really do with help knowing how to pick the best tactics for my team in the first place though, and what I can do to counter other sides tactics a bit.

PS) I know my approach of drafting the #1 pick each year isn't popular, but help would still be apprieciated and then I might be good enough to play in another way.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:00 pm

miked1991 wrote:Next time I start a thread and say I can't find the answer anywhere after looking around, maybe I won't get such a rude response (second bad experience from the same mod I might add)

Anyway, I'll take a guess this is where he wanted me to post, so a bit of copying and pasting my thread into here is in order I think

Drop the attitude. Now. It's as simple as that. If you want to be a part of this community, you will follow the rules that have been set up. The TBL rules state you should use the existing thread if one already exists on a topic. You are not so special that you need a new thread for your discussion of tactics. If you don't want a "rude response", try to follow the rules instead of blatantly disregarding them. The tactics thread is right there at the top of the EHM Knowledge forum. Is it really that hard to just use that thread?

matt44 · Post by **matt44** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:31 pm

Dont you just hate it when you think you improve you already shakey defense, yet it gets even worse??

My D last season was:

Jovanovski - Morris
Ranger - Klee
Pardy - Stralman

This season its:

Jovanovski - Morris
Janik - Klee
Frogren - Semenov

My netminder for both seasons is Bryzgalov.

In the last 3 games i've conceded 10 against Dallas, 6 against Rangers and 6 against Islanders.

My forward lines havent changed much in terms of defensive forwards and i've tampered with the Collapse, Open & Positional options.

Anyone have any ideas? lol

gibson41 · Post by **gibson41** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:18 pm

I think it's more of a matter of tactics, than improving defense.

First, I would check if your guys allow a lot of shots on goalie or not, to see if it's matter of sucky defense or sucky goalie. But it shouldn't be Bryzgalov's case. Also, check your backchecking, I have it set to normal/hard. You know, it's more complex...same problem over and over again, but different solutions

Post by **batdad** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 pm

Mike...in spite of the comments above towards me (Believe me you will get used to me, everyone does)...here is one simple suggestion:

Change the breakout and neutral ice things every game or two. Leave your offensive zone and dzone the same for a period of time (I have not even figured out how long) Do this at even strength and PP. Leave PK alone, and only change it if the other team starts scoring.

Make sure you are practicing the pp and pk more than 15% or whatever the default is. Make sure you have good tactics coaches, who can teach forwards and defense, and are not conditioning coaches. (Likely best is General)

Make sure you are patient with your tactics...it says all throughout here that some of the PP things just don't work well...and I have yet to meet anyone who says 2-1-2 is effective in the pp Zone. Keep to the simple ones. (Overload slot, funnel, Triangle, umbrella) ANd don't change em every period or game.

Despite what some say: ORtmeyer to me is useless. Lose him. Also, Stamkos and Hodgson are not NHL ready in any game I have seen out of junior. They need some time in the minors. But that is up to you. No matter what your coahces say..no wya I play asll youngsters on 2nd line. Not stars there for me usually, but certainly not those three you have there. They will get killed.

That fourth line is fine, but I don't like Hollweg. Also Stastny is not really a number 1 C in the game.

And for the sake of this game, your Defense is too old for skill guys (Nieds, Pronger, Witt,) and too useless with the others.

I see what kind of team you are building but you could use a younger dman (27 or so) who has some speed/skill. I would get rid of one of the old men and go from there. My third lines, usually have two decent vets (one with leadership) and a young guy.

I cannot give you specific tactic help, because it would take pages. There are zillions of thougths,...have a look. (Also I really set up individual tactics with all my guys based on what type of player that they appear to be...it takes awhile for them to get used to the tactics) Then I set up line tactics based on my players abilities and then team ones.

Edit: Okay more than one suggestion...

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:50 pm

Thanks for the help batdad, thats really useful. I hope there aren't any hard-feelings still lying around. If I can respond to your advice...

Stastny I agree doesn't seem to have the stats to be a 1st liner, but he's playing the same line and same minutes as Wolski and St.Louis, and he's outscoring both of them. But for a late season slip, he was in the hunt for league top scorer, finishing on about 109 points... poor as he may be he seems to be getting me results (half my wins just come from my first line all rating 10's with nobody else performing, probably a result of the rookie 2nd line).

What sort of breakouts / neutral zone would switch between? In the past I have changed as you say the breakouts and neutral zone play between Wings Cross and Crossover every 20 games or so... because Free Flowing I've used in the past and it was causing me to give up a lot of 3rd period goals as other teams pressed my defence and they didn't know how to break it out, Board Play I just don't think I've ever had a team to suit it, and Positional just sounds too simple to be effective lol.

I don't quite understand what your saying about my defence? How can it be "too old" for skilled guys? Aren't the skilled ones always good to have, or are you saying they're not put to best use as they can really help the development of a young player alongside them? The last season or two my drafting has been concentrated on defence as I know I'm short there, and I guess its going to be a couple of years at least until my players have developed enough to win a cup, so I'm thinking I may aswell trade out the old guys like Niedermayer because he won't be around long enough to win me a cup.

One final question, with these rookies, how good do you think they should be before you bring them into your team, and what line do you put them onto? Ie wait until they're 1st/2nd line ready and get the minutes in the AHL beforehand, or call them up as soon as they can break into my 4th line? This year Travares has put up 140 points across 77 games in the AHL (next best player on 98), but his stats are still 3/4s yellow, rest orange but 5 green attributes. So he's not that great (although better than Stamkos)... should he have another year in the AHL to get those stats up or move into the NHL now? I guess I'm asking if I should go by their attributes, or the numbers the player puts up.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:23 pm

ooo I just noticed, my PP % is at 19.3%, 2nd in the league, and that's been using the 2-1-2 approach! Does that count as effective?

matt44 · Post by **matt44** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:55 pm

Does anyone know if there's anything built into the game that gives better line chemistry if I used, for example, the 2 Swedish d-men I have on the same defensive line? as opposed to a swede and a canadian?

Post by **batdad** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:19 pm

For 2-1-2 that is extremely effective. I never use wings cross. Free, positional, board play.

Sorry, I just should have said too old. I like my d between 25 and 32 and strong skaters.

Prospects-If putting up average ratings over about 7.2 in AHL I say call em upfor year 2 and place for limited minutes. If having success, move up occasionally, and play pp time (or pk if dminded guys) 2nd unit.

Chemistry develops by playing together. Not necessarily based on nationality.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:55 pm

I'm having a lot of trouble finding decent young defenceman to trade for, as the AI always refuses to trade anyone above a third liner. Marc Staal is a good one to aim at, but I need to throw Travares and another 1st round pick at them to pick him up (they don't even rate him as a franchise player!), also looked at Shea Weber, but they won't take Niedermayer or Pronger for him, although they would accept both (and for Weber it actually says they could "potentially trash out a deal here"), they seem fairly keen on Brewer, looks like they might take Brewer, Witt and a low pick. Problem is its almost impossible to pick anyone up in a 1 for 1 trade, I always have to throw a lot of extras at them to get the player. Only 1 for 1 trade I can get is Campoli for Niedermayer but I might have to add a low pick to that one, and that doesn't look a good trade to me!

Any tips on how to find players to go for that aren't going to cost me half my roster to get?

Post by **batdad** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:38 pm

Draft em

matt44 · Post by **matt44** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:11 pm

Try signing Stralman from the Swedish league. Think he's only 22 and shoudl develop into a decent offensive d-man

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:53 pm

Haha yeah I am drafting D-men, but they're gonna take 6-7 years to come through to make a differance, I was hoping to start winning sooner than that lol. I did make a big trade, got rid of Witt and Brewer to bring in Mike Green and Sejera... also got me a 3rd round pick and moved my top pick 8 places forward. My board and fans hated the trade, I don't know if it was a good move or not, but I guess I'll find that out soon! I've got one or two 22 year old prospects who should be ready soon (Lund and Plante) but neither look NHL ready yet despite a couple of years each at AHL level putting in an average rating of 7-7.5 for each season. Still, I've got that regen I posted about in the other thread to try out.

Stralman, I've set scouts to look at him... he can't move until the end of his currant contract by which time he'll be 25 in my game... I'll see what the scouts think, but thats for the pointer... my scouts havn't seen anything of him though so I wouldn't never have found him without you.

Post by **joehelmer** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:05 pm

If the fans and board hated that trade it can't be good.

The players that you traded seems to have been being good for your team.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:13 pm

joehelmer wrote:If the fans and board hated that trade it can't be good.

The players that you traded seems to have been being good for your team.

Not necessarily. I find that the board and fans over-value certain players, especially older ones, based mostly on their reputation. They don't always see that the player(s) being traded out might be in their mid-30's and making a whole lot of money and that the incoming guy is (for example) 22 and on the verge of being a star.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:28 pm

bruins72 wrote:
joehelmer wrote:If the fans and board hated that trade it can't be good.

The players that you traded seems to have been being good for your team.
Not necessarily. I find that the board and fans over-value certain players, especially older ones, based mostly on their reputation. They don't always see that the player(s) being traded out might be in their mid-30's and making a whole lot of money and that the incoming guy is (for example) 22 and on the verge of being a star.

That seems a good explanation. The trade was...

To Red Wings, Brenden Witt(36), Eric Brewer(32), 1st Round Pick (#16 overall)
To Avalanche, Mike Green (25), Andrej Sekera(25), 1st Round Pick (#7 overall), and a 3rd round pick (#67 overall)

And that trade knocked 5 million off my salary cap... they didn't like it much as Witt had a surprisingly good season.

I figure that I'm not looking likely to win a cup until about 3 years time, by which point Witt will be too old and declining, and Brewer was on 5 million a year which I won't be able to afford in 3 years time with a lot of prospects developing, who all want 1/2 year deals with in some cases quite hefty wage increases... I'm gonna have to get rid of one or two as it is, so spending 5 mill on a 2nd pair D-man isn't an option. I signed the two players as FA's before this season began as I had 10 mill cap space available and my D the year before was very weak... so I've essentially got two reasonably young defencemen and a 3rd round pick for free, scouts seem to think both are 1/2 talents with one or two rating them at 3/4, although I'd call Green a 2nd line and Sekera is probably only a 3rd liner but will have to play 2nd for me as I don't have anyone better lol.

Also following batdad's advice to get younger, I traded out Scott Niedermayer and a 5/6 D-man prospect for the #1 overall pick (sorry... I can't resist the top pick!), and took Rylan Nesbitt, an acrobatic netminder who was ISL ranked #2... hopefully he'll become a game breaker for me in the future, and as was the case with the first trade, I can't see Niedermayer still being around when I'm next in the hunt for a cup.

After an 8.5 average rating and 145 points in the AHL I'm moving Travares up to the NHL team, question is should I start him off on the 4th line (where he had a terrible season 2 years ago averaging 6.5 rating per game), or get him a few more minutes on the 3rd line? It'll be Ryan Hollweg in the other spot of the two spots...

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:43 pm

miked1991 wrote: After an 8.5 average rating and 145 points in the AHL I'm moving Travares up to the NHL team, question is should I start him off on the 4th line (where he had a terrible season 2 years ago averaging 6.5 rating per game), or get him a few more minutes on the 3rd line? It'll be Ryan Hollweg in the other spot of the two spots...

You could start off with Tavares on the 3rd line and maybe the 2nd PP unit for a bit and see how he does. Then maybe move him to the 2nd line once in a while.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:41 pm

bruins72 wrote:
miked1991 wrote: After an 8.5 average rating and 145 points in the AHL I'm moving Travares up to the NHL team, question is should I start him off on the 4th line (where he had a terrible season 2 years ago averaging 6.5 rating per game), or get him a few more minutes on the 3rd line? It'll be Ryan Hollweg in the other spot of the two spots...
You could start off with Tavares on the 3rd line and maybe the 2nd PP unit for a bit and see how he does. Then maybe move him to the 2nd line once in a while.

Hmm I'm going to have to re-think my plans as I went crazy in the off-season... those trades on the D saved me 5 mill in cap space and as I had 10 mill free I thought I may aswell see who I could pick up to fill the rather large holes in my team (after playing rookies on the 2nd line last season, no real 2nd line talents on my team). So anyway here's the lineup I knocked together with all my new players in it.

Goalie Rotation - Nabokov and Khabibulin

Defence - As before, it'll be,
Vaananan - Pronger
Sekera - Green
Aleksandrov (the crazy 19 yr old russian prospect) - Ryan Wilson (seeing how he does, might get a long term spot or just a year before others move up)

Forwards,
Wolski - Stastny - St. Louis
McCauley - Cullen - Demitra
Nieminen - Franzen - Kane
Dingman - Hollweg - Ortmeyer

I'm wondering how best to fit Travares into that team... Probably drop Dingman or Ortmeyer, but Hollweg LW, Franzen drop to 4th line leaving Travares as 3rd line centre.

Powerplay I'm really stuck on. Looking through on here, Funnel seems a popular choice so I read that and also went with what the guide says about strong players (and figured I wanted the good shooters in the D positions). I came up with this...

Pronger - St. Lous - Nieminen - Stastny - Demitra
Green - Aleksandrov - Cullen - Franzen - Wolski

I wanted right handed shooters on Left D and the opposite at RD, but the only right shooters in my team are Green and Ortmeyer... and of them only Green has a decent shot... Ortmeyer's never going to see powerplay time lol, but he's on PK a lot. Am I along the right lines with this powerplay playing Funnel, or am I not setting it up right (should it be shooters at the blue line?). With the players I've got, might I be better going for a more finesse based approach, maybe just go with Diamond and then I'll only need 2 strong guys infront of net and I can make use of a playmaker in the LD slot to set up the 2 shooters. Also, should Travares make a spot in my lineup I probably want to add him in to the PP set up somewhere.

PK players I'm looking to use Nieminen, Ortmeyer, Kane (as he's projected a 2-way player), and McCauley... I've gone for tight box as they're some of the stronger players although the 2nd pair of Kane and McCauley only get 3 stars on it for their line, I don't really know whats best to go with though on PK.