NHL Prospects researcher(s) wanted.

Post by **Lidas** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:04 am

bruins72 wrote:Lidas... I was wondering if we should lower the PA on some of these players that have a "D" as part of their HF grade. For example, I'm giving the Thrashers a shot. I see far too many of their prospects being given grades of 7 or 7.5 but they've got a "D" associated with it, which is "unlikely to reach potential, could drop 3 ratings". To me it looks like they've over-valued several of these players. What I've been doing is dropping the 7.5D players to -7 instead of -8 PA. I'm wondering if I should drop the 7D players to -6 PA to keep them from being over-powered. The game won't be any fun if we've got too many talented players in it.

Sounds like a good idea to me, dropping the X.5 players to the grade below for sure. I'll re-do the Red Wings from now.

Post by **Lidas** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:04 am

How about the "D" rated prospects who don't have a .5 grade. Any opinions there?

Post by **Lidas** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:17 am

Teams taken so far:

Anaheim
Atlanta (bruins72)
Boston (bruins72)
Buffalo
Calgary
Carolina
Chicago
Colorado
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit (Lidas)
Edmonton
Florida
Los Angeles
Minnesota (MKoivuFan)
Montreal
Nashville
New Jersey
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
Ottawa
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa Bay
Toronto (02m3smg)
Vancouver
Washington

Post by **Lidas** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:37 pm

I just like to point out that it is also important to update weight and height. Although I have read in many places they size doesnt matter (at least in EHM), based on my experience, smaller players have problems living up to their standards, while bigger guys tend to get higher ratings. I have especially noted this on players under 80 kg.

A lot of the body stats are one or two years old (maybe even three), and since the prospects have grewn since then (I have seen players who have gained 15kg), please remember to update the body stats too.

Starcrasher · Post by **Starcrasher** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:24 pm

Alright, I'll give a try for Montréal.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:14 pm

Lidas wrote:How about the "D" rated prospects who don't have a .5 grade. Any opinions there?

What I did was if they weren't a .5 grade and they had a "D" and they weren't in the top 10 of the prospects (#11-#20 or not ranked), I would drop them a full number. If someone is a team's #16 ranked prospect and they've got a grade of 7D, they don't deserve a -7. I think they should be a -6. I think sometimes the people who do the grades at HF might be a little over enthusiastic about some prospects they probably won't ever suit up for the team. Plus, with different people ranking different teams, you've got some people the are a little more free and loose with good grades while others are a little more stringent. I think there's got to be a judgment call made.

Post by **Lidas** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:41 am

Starcrasher wrote:Alright, I'll give a try for Montréal.

Excellent!

02m3smg · Post by **02m3smg** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:24 am

Sorry a little confused, do you want CA and PA?

edit:

I downloaded the Lida'sv1.1 sheet to edit but would it be OK to rename the bruins prospect one and send it to you with all the variables?

I couldn't find the variables in the v1.1 so I ended up opening the old Db and if need, input into the sheet.

Post by **Lidas** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:42 am

02m3smg wrote:Sorry a little confused, do you want CA and PA?

edit:

I downloaded the Lida'sv1.1 sheet to edit but would it be OK to rename the bruins prospect one and send it to you with all the variables? I couldn't find the variables in the v1.1 so I ended up opening the old Db and if need, input into the sheet.

Sure, you can use Bruins' sheet. CA should be covered already for most of the players, so you dont really need to care about that. The most important thing is to set correct PA (based on hockeysfuture's judgement), adjust weight and height, and update the player attributes.

02m3smg · Post by **02m3smg** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:32 am

Lidas wrote:
02m3smg wrote:Sorry a little confused, do you want CA and PA?

edit:

I downloaded the Lida'sv1.1 sheet to edit but would it be OK to rename the bruins prospect one and send it to you with all the variables? I couldn't find the variables in the v1.1 so I ended up opening the old Db and if need, input into the sheet.
Sure, you can use Bruins' sheet. CA should be covered already for most of the players, so you dont really need to care about that. The most important thing is to set correct PA (based on hockeysfuture's judgement), adjust weight and height, and update the player attributes.

OK thanks for the reply, I am doing what he did.

This is harder than I thought.

edit: One last question

So leave CA alone, but attributes can be slightly modified if need be. say from 8 to 9? I noticed they were 95% still accurate for ones with variables. And fill in, if confident, variables that are 0 with a number?

Post by **Lidas** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:07 am

02m3smg wrote:
Lidas wrote:
02m3smg wrote:Sorry a little confused, do you want CA and PA?

edit:

I downloaded the Lida'sv1.1 sheet to edit but would it be OK to rename the bruins prospect one and send it to you with all the variables? I couldn't find the variables in the v1.1 so I ended up opening the old Db and if need, input into the sheet.
Sure, you can use Bruins' sheet. CA should be covered already for most of the players, so you dont really need to care about that. The most important thing is to set correct PA (based on hockeysfuture's judgement), adjust weight and height, and update the player attributes.
OK thanks for the reply, I am doing what he did.

This is harder than I thought.

edit: One last question

So leave CA alone, but attributes can be slightly modified if need be. say from 8 to 9? I noticed they were 95% still accurate for ones with variables. And fill in, if confident, variables that are 0 with a number?

Correct, but you can increase/decrease the attribs more than one step where you feel its neccesary..

Post by **Lidas** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:17 am

Just made a list for PA values. The left column is HF's rating, and the right is the value you should use for the update.
For the ratings where there are two values to choose from, use the one you feel most appropriate.

10.0A -> -10
10.0B -> -10
10.0C -> -10
10.0D -> -10/-9
9.5A -> -10
9.5B -> -10
9.5C -> -10/-9
9.5D -> -9
9.0A -> -9
9.0B -> -9
9.0C -> -9
9.0D -> -9/-8
8.5A -> -9
8.5B -> -9
8.5C -> -9/-8
8.5D -> -8
8.0A -> -8
8.0B -> -8
8.0C -> -8
8.0D -> -8/-7
7.5A -> -8
7.5B -> -8
7.5C -> -8/-7
7.5D -> -7
7.0A -> -7
7.0B -> -7
7.0C -> -7
7.0D -> -7/-6
6.5A -> -7
6.5B -> -7
6.5C -> -7/-6
6.5D -> -6
6.0A -> -6
6.0B -> -6
6.0C -> -6
6.0D -> -6/-5
5.5A -> -6
5.5B -> -6
5.5C -> -6/-5
5.5D -> -5
5.0A -> -5
5.0B -> -5
5.0C -> -5
5.0D -> -5/-4

HERE is a list describing the PA values.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:30 pm

Is anyone else interested in helping out? Here is the current list of teams. There are still many available to work on!

Teams taken so far:

Anaheim
Atlanta (bruins72)
Boston (bruins72)
Buffalo
Calgary
Carolina
Chicago
Colorado
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit (Lidas)
Edmonton
Florida (bruins72)
Los Angeles
Minnesota (MKoivuFan)
Montreal
Nashville (bruins72)
New Jersey
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
Ottawa
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis (bruins72)
Tampa Bay
Toronto (02m3smg)
Vancouver
Washington

You don't have to be a fan of the team or anything. It's just a matter of going through the reports at Hockey's Future and doing the best you can to fill in the blanks for the players.

stone169 · Post by **stone169** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:05 pm

I'd like to help out, but I have a couple of questions first.

1. Do you just want the Top Prospects and Other Notables that are listed by Hockey Future?

2. For each player do you want the attribute ratings listed in the DB inputed into the Research Sheet?

3. For example if a player has a hard slapshot, but the rating is set to 0, then how do you know what number to put in it's place? If you make the number too high will there be someone reviewing the sheet before inputing all the data in the database?

4. Do you want the height and weight to be listed in metric?

selne · Post by **selne** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:35 pm

I could give it a try. Carolina still available, right?

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:39 pm

stone169 wrote:I'd like to help out, but I have a couple of questions first.

1. Do you just want the Top Prospects and Other Notables that are listed by Hockey Future?

2. For each player do you want the attribute ratings listed in the DB inputed into the Research Sheet?

3. For example if a player has a hard slapshot, but the rating is set to 0, then how do you know what number to put in it's place? If you make the number too high will there be someone reviewing the sheet before inputing all the data in the database?

4. Do you want the height and weight to be listed in metric?

I can't answer for exactly what Lidas wants but I can tell you what I did for the teams that I've done for him.

1. Yes, I've done the Top 20 Prospects for the team as listed by Hockey's Future. Then I've looked through the list of Other Notables. If any of those names looked familiar, I'd take a look at them in the editor. If their PA didn't match with how we'd rank it based on the HF grade, then I'd do that player. If it matched up, I'd pass on doing him. If it wasn't a player I could remember seeing, I'd just skip over him.

2. I did list out the attribute ratings as they were in the editor and put them into the research sheet. Then I'd adjust those ratings based on the Talent Analysis for the player at HF.

3. If you look at the player's CA, you can use the chart that shows Average, Minimum, and Maximum attribute values based on CA. I believe it was listed in that link to a post at breakaway.net but I'll paste it in here...

Average, minimum and maximum attributes by CA

CA AVR MIN MAX
10 4,5 1,0 10,5
20 5,0 1,0 11,0
30 5,5 1,0 11,5
40 6,0 1,0 12,0
50 6,5 1,0 12,5
60 6,0 1,0 13,0
70 7,5 1,5 13,5
80 8,0 2,0 14,0
90 8,5 2,5 14,5
100 9,0 3,0 15,0
110 9,5 3,5 15,5
120 10,0 4,0 16,0
130 10,5 4,5 16,5
140 11,0 5,0 17,0
150 11,5 5,5 17,5
160 12,0 6,0 18,0
170 12,5 6,5 18,5
180 13,0 7,0 19,0
190 13,5 7,5 19,5
200 14,0 8,0 20,0

NOTE! This does not mean that MAX value is the hard cap value. Same with the MIN value. This is just a guideline. In some cases you will encounter a talented low-mid level CA skater, aggressive enforcer, or a really strong, but otherwise poor or average player. Non-technical and mental attributes may vary a lot, depending on the individual, whereas technical attributes tend to correlate with the guidelines.

So if a player has a 105 CA and the talent analysis says he's got a good shot, I might give him a 10 or 11 in wrist shot. If they said he had a NHL ready shot, I might move it closer to 15. In the teams that I've done, I've tried to play it conservative if I wasn't sure. Mostly, I try to get the differences between attributes right to make the player the style of player they're supposed to be. Then PA handles the rest. The way I look at it is that we might not be 100% accurate in our ratings but the players will be more "usable" than if the attributes are left random because you always see players turn out wrong due to stupid randomized attributes. You know what I mean?

Yeah, height and weight need to be listed in metric because that's how the editor works with them. It's easy to convert them though.

inches * 2.54 = cm
lbs * 0.45359237 = kg

I just wait until I've got everything done on my sheet and then I use a formula to do these for me in the spreadsheet.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:40 pm

selne wrote:I could give it a try. Carolina still available, right?

As far as I can tell.

stone169 · Post by **stone169** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:47 pm

Thanks Bruins72

Alright then. Put me down for the Ottawa Senators, if no one else has taken them. Hopefully I don't screw up that much.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:00 pm

I'm sure you'll do fine. Just remember, when in doubt... go conservative!

I'm glad to see we've got a couple more people helping Lidas out. It's getting close to the season starting and he's so busy entering data, he can really use the help with research.

Post by **Lidas** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:37 pm

updated list

Teams taken so far:
Anaheim
Atlanta (bruins72) - Done
Boston (bruins72) - Done
Buffalo (bruins72) - Done
Calgary
Carolina (selne)
Chicago
Colorado
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit (Lidas) - Done
Edmonton
Florida (bruins72) - Done
Los Angeles
Minnesota (MKoivuFan)
Montreal (Starcrasher)
Nashville (bruins72) - Done
New Jersey
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
Ottawa (stone169)
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis (bruins72) - Done
Tampa Bay
Toronto (02m3smg)
Vancouver
Washington

empach · Post by **empach** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:45 am

If I can find some free time I'll try to do a team or two. When's the latest you need these?

stone169 · Post by **stone169** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:04 am

I've got another question. I've noticed in the Other Notables that they have players in there that Ottawa drafted this past draft. Should I include those as well or are the newly drafted players already being taken care of?

I just want to be sure. For now I'll list them without putting down their stats and just leave a note on the sheet that they were drafted by Ottawa.

Post by **Lidas** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:18 am

empach wrote:If I can find some free time I'll try to do a team or two. When's the latest you need these?

The sooner the better, but if I cant squeeze them into this version, they will be in 2.1 for sure.

Post by **Lidas** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:20 am

stone169 wrote:I've got another question. I've noticed in the Other Notables that they have players in there that Ottawa drafted this past draft. Should I include those as well or are the newly drafted players already being taken care of?

I just want to be sure. For now I'll list them without putting down their stats and just leave a note on the sheet that they were drafted by Ottawa.

The players from the newer draft are not fixed, so please include as many players as you can. Top 20 is most important, but it's great of you can do the rest too.

stone169 · Post by **stone169** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:27 am

Lidas wrote:
stone169 wrote:I've got another question. I've noticed in the Other Notables that they have players in there that Ottawa drafted this past draft. Should I include those as well or are the newly drafted players already being taken care of?

I just want to be sure. For now I'll list them without putting down their stats and just leave a note on the sheet that they were drafted by Ottawa.
The players from the newer draft are not fixed, so please include as many players as you can. Top 20 is most important, but it's great of you can do the rest too.

Great. I found three in the 'Other Notables', but Hockeys Future hadn't rated them yet so I just put down their actual weight and the team they are currently with and left a note on the sheet and I actually found one that retired...Kevin Koopman. I also put that in the notes.