General Disappointment

[SkierP20]

I've been thinking about where to post this as more of a personal vent, and i have come to the conclusion that the FHM forum perhaps is not the right venue.

I bought the game in Beta, tried playing it, couldnt get into it, put it down, and I have picked it back up numerous times over the course of the last year. Frankly, it just doesn't do it for me and while I have a TON of faith in the team at Out of the Park Developments after reading a few forums I am starting to conclude that in order for this game to succeed it is going to need a change to the dev team. Let me share with you what I found in the forums and let you draw your own conclusion..

Sebastian Palkowski's other project is iOOTP. This was posted in the iOOTP forums by him on October 2, 2013:

As of today (actually yesterday) I'm back to iOOTP. As written earlier my first work will be to get iOOTP working with iOS6/7, which includes Retina- and iPhone 5 support. Both is required by Apple now, otherwise I can't upload any new patches anymore.

I will use this thread to keep you updated but please don't expect a "nothing new today" post every day.

If you have questions about iOOTP, feel free to ask them here

-----

The NEXT post from him was on January 2, 2014 three months later talking about how the patch was 95% done. The game sat in silence for another 2 months. Finally, on March 6, "BradC" the PR & Marketing Manager for OOTPD was put in the difficult position of posting this message:

Given the late date, iOOTP 2013 development is now final. We are focused on FHM, BTS, iOOTP 2014, and OOTP 15.

------

So the game sat not being updated. They later stated that the reason was the ongoing work on FHM. Compare that message to one posted on January 5, 2014 in the FHM forum by Sebastian that contains the following:

I will use this (locked) thread to give you 4-5 updates a week. That way you know what we are working on. Most of the time it will be boring updates but I will use this thread to go into more detail when I feel the time is right.

------

Looks kind of familiar to me. And as time went on, the updates stopped, much like they did for iOOTP. Eventually though, we got the update. Back over in the iOOTP forum, Sebastian explained in greater detail the meaning for the "death" of iOOTP13 stating that iOOTP would not exist without FHM for his own financial reasons, and for the cut that he gets from selling each game. On Marth 18th, 2014 (just 10 days ago) he posted in the iOOTP forum:

So the last few weeks (and the upcoming weeks) I work on iOOTP (and on FHM in my "free-time") to release a new version this year.

----------

So Sebastian has now stepped away from FHM as a full-time project much like he did when he turned TO iOOTP. It makes me wonder when (and if) we will get the Match Engine update. He turned away from iOOTP when it was reported as 95% done, and now, with promises of another "big" patch of FHM we are left with Matle and Jeff working on it while the lead developer downgrades FHM as a project following the latest FHM patch that STILL leaves issues with RFA's, hiring/firing mechanics, and the UI to name just a few.

I WANT this game to succeed. I want a hockey management game so badly, and I really feel that OOTP is the company that is best positioned to put it out just because of the success of OOTP Baseball over the years. They have the ability to put out one heck of a sports management game, and I have no doubt that they can pull this off. I wonder though if Sebastian is the right one to lead this at this point. Maybe it is time for them to move on.

[RomaGoth]

I get what you are saying, but I believe we need to give them more than a year or so to get things figured out. Yes, the release and all was a complete debacle, in no way was FHM even close to being ready for release last September but it is what it is and we move on. I doubt that OOTP was much better when it first came out either, it has taken years and years for them to improve it and they are still making changes even now. Text sims, much like other games, are in constant flux that needed to be improved upon as new technology and ideas are brought about.

I am willing to give them as long as they need to work things out and improve FHM. It may be 2-3 more years before we see something that rivals the current OOTP game, maybe even longer. I am just glad that someone is working on this, otherwise we would have nothing but EHM, which I still play but let's be honest: it is 8 years old and how long can people keep updating the rosters and such before it is not realistic to bother with anymore?

I believe Jeff knows what he is doing, and my understanding from the beginning was that he was the lead on the FHM project and Sebastian was in the background on this since his "baby" is OOTP anyway.

I am not worried, it will get figured out and be improved upon....or it won't.

[nino33]

I believe Jeff knows what he is doing, and my understanding from the beginning was that he was the lead on the FHM project and Sebastian was in the background on this since his "baby" is OOTP anyway.

Actually this has been "Sebastian's baby" and Jeff only joined shortly before the original/initial release date (early 2013). While Jeff is certainly influential, if you think Jeff is leading/directing things and Sebastian is following I believe you're way off

And Jeff/Sebastian/Malte have nothing to do with OOTP!
Sebastian does do iOOTP too, but he has not only noted it's not his "baby" but Sebastian has said without FHM he wouldn't even be doing iOOTP!

I am not worried, it will get figured out and be improved upon....or it won't.

So you're not worried regardless of whether things get fixed or not...seems like you don't care much

[archibalduk]

That's interesting about iOOTP. I wasn't aware of things going on there (other than the complaints that they were feeling neglected).

That said, I think there's a lot of conjecture and assumptions in this thread. I can see why those assumptions have been made, but certainly some of it is wrong. I've been fortunate enough to be part of the testing and research team since roughly May/June 2012 (more-or-less from day 1). We're not privy to absolutely everything, but we do get to see much of the wider picture and behind the scenes things that the general consumer doesn't. Hence I can say categorically that some of the assumptions above are way off the mark.

As Nino said, the game is Sebastian's baby. He wrote the original match engine and game which formed the basis of FHM (it was a pet project/hobby of his for a number of years prior to OOTP taking on the game). Sebastian is the senior coder whereas Malte is, as I understand it, still a junior. Hence why things slow down when Sebastian's not there. Jeff is the Producer but I believe that ultimately it's Sebastian who has the final say (well other than Andreas/Markus of course). I have no idea what the arrangement is with iOOTP vs FHM for Sebastian, but he is still very much involved in the project. I know for a fact that Sebastian has spent a great deal of time this week working on a particular aspect of the game and I and other testers/researchers have been helping him with this too (obviously it's not for me to say what this is).

Having said that, I do agree that the communication from OOTP can be frustrating at times. They promise one thing and then do something else. But I do think their hearts are in the right place and, barring another EHM appearing any time soon, they're by far the best people for the job. It is of course a shame the first version was released too early and the situation was a shambles.

IMO I think once the match engine patch is released, the game will be at a level I had hoped/expected for version 1 (except the clunky UI that is). I think many people had far too high expectations for v1. There are lots of bugs, etc but so there are with EHM too. I'm hopeful we'll see an FHM that lives up to expectations but it'll take some time. I have waited 7 years and am happy to wait another few.

[SkierP20]

As far as the relationship between iOOTP and FHM I again reference Sebastian's post in the iOOTP forum:

We can't do more then explaining the situation. I will do it one more time (the last time):

When I joined OOTP Dev to make iOOTP I quit my job and took the risk that iOOTP will work out. As you all know, iOOTP is priced $5, people pay more for a coffee this days. Now, from this $5 I get just a small share as Apple (30%), PISD, graphics, PR and OOTP Dev get all shares too. On top of it we lose about 30% due to the bad Euro-$ exchange rate. All 3 versions sold about the same number of games, we were always happy with the numbers but it never was enough to support my life. So two years I had to cut back my expenses to make the game. When I had the chance to make FHM as my own project, I had to take it, otherwise I would be back to a normal job. With FHM I make enough money to support my life, in theory I could just abandon iOOTP. But that is not my intention, as I like the game a lot. So the last few weeks (and the upcoming weeks) I work on iOOTP (and on FHM in my "free-time") to release a new version this year.

Long story short: without FHM there would be no iOOTP anymore. We want to make a new version every year and we will continue to support it throughout the year if needed (bugs, smaller additions) but with such a small price it is not possible to work on it around the year fulltime.

I'm glad that most people here understand and I'm looking forward to another year of iOOTP. Can't wait for Opening Day and iOOTP in April.

--------------------------------

Its interesting when you bring up the UI. With arguments that have been made about the short comings of the game the constant defense is that there is the "silent majority" that makes up this group of people that is completely and totally satisfied with the game (or more particularly the UI).

Overall, I feel like their approach is what is off.. Hence my comments about Sebastian. Furthermore, I am not a fan of how he addresses the group. I DO have a post that I wrote a while back that was deleted. If there is a MOD I can send it to through PM, they can decide if it is appropriate to be posted here. It makes some points that I feel need to be shared.

Just let me know if you're interested!

[Alessandro]

After reading Skier's post, I don't get why Andreas and Markus have such a huge reputation

[B. Stinson]

Are you sure FHM was Sebastian's game? I always thought it was Malte's project (which found its way to OOTP via Sebastian)?

But either way, they really need to get things figured out over there at OOTP. No more of this jumping back-and-forth between games nonsense. Get a full-time developer for FHM. Then, either get a full-time developer for iOOTP, or scrap the game. I don't want to start being that guy, but I didn't spend $30-$40 for an OOTP title which sees half of its development time relegated to "free time."

After reading Skier's post, I don't get why Andreas and Markus have such a huge reputation

Because OOTP Baseball is a great, long-running series.

...Not sure why the incompetence of the FHM team should affect Markus and Andreas' reputation

[batdad]

Sorry Skier. I get what you are saying, and I get that all things may not be perfect in Sebastien\s world. I have been one of the biggest detractors of the FHM game over there and here. I say what i think, and move on unlike many posters over there.

The game is the game, and OOTP will develop it the way they say fit. It is their game. As for iOOTP stuff? Who cares? Not a game I bought or intend on buying. They are working on FHM and are continuing to do so. some Day hopefully it will be a good solid game. Right now it is not, and one day I hope it is.

You have insider knowledge other than what archi has just told you he cannot discuss due to non disclosure arrangements on the beta team? If so share it. If not...then your post is just rehashing a bunch of stuff and building more negativity.

Quite honestly when I went over and posted about the UI (Again for like the 20th time) and mentioned archi and alessandro....the development team jumped all over it, and are now working with the crew behind the scenes to get things better. It was as fast a change in what Seb had been saying about the UI as I have ever seen.

Went from ...silent majority talk to quickly taking suggestions about the UI and issues with it. From what I know, that work is continuing behind the scenes.

Game is his baby...he will work on it hard until OOTP says...this game is done. Sorry Sebastien it is a failure. Jeff is a big hockey guy...loves it, and will do the same.

It is not good right now, and life goes on. They will keep working at it.

As for things you said in a post deleted over at FHM site....who cares? Not me. Just a slam and negativity if it got deleted. Not useful for constructive like my post telling them to LISTEN to archi and alessandro. Which they appear to be doing now. Not sure they were before.

So I give them the credit that they deserve. THey are trying.


As for OOTP and its structure for paying employees..sorry I do not care. That is a business decision and the employees signed on for that...they get what they signed on for. So Sebastien worried about survival with iOOTP? Not on OOTP ... on him for signing the deal. But he needed to break in somehow to have a future. You do not break in at the top level of compensation, and OOTP still needs to make $ as a company.

[nino33]

Are you sure FHM was Sebastian's game?

While Malte is mentioned too Sebastian said in 2011 "The project is based on a game I did before I joined OOTP Developments." http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ockey.html

...Not sure why the incompetence of the FHM team should affect Markus and Andreas' reputation

I suspect because some/many people are always going to hold the boss/owner ultimately responsible for the actions of a company

[RomaGoth]

I believe Jeff knows what he is doing, and my understanding from the beginning was that he was the lead on the FHM project and Sebastian was in the background on this since his "baby" is OOTP anyway.

Actually this has been "Sebastian's baby" and Jeff only joined shortly before the original/initial release date (early 2013). While Jeff is certainly influential, if you think Jeff is leading/directing things and Sebastian is following I believe you're way off

And Jeff/Sebastian/Malte have nothing to do with OOTP!
Sebastian does do iOOTP too, but he has not only noted it's not his "baby" but Sebastian has said without FHM he wouldn't even be doing iOOTP!

I am not worried, it will get figured out and be improved upon....or it won't.

So you're not worried regardless of whether things get fixed or not...seems like you don't care much

I started working on parts of the project with Jeff long before FHM went BETA, and everything communicated was from Jeff, rarely did Sebastian have anything to do with it. This doesn't mean he wasn't involved, it just means I didn't see anything from my end. In any case, this is irrelevant, all that matters is the game and when/how it is being done.

As for not caring much, that is quite an assumption you are making since you have never met me and you are taking that from one post on a message board. My point with that statement is essentially, "If they get the game running right and improve it that is great. However, if they don't improve it, the game will go away and that is that. I am not going to lose any sleep over it as I am, at the end of the day, just another consumer and have no vested interest in the profitability of FHM"

Take that how you want, but there it is.

[batdad]

Roma - I was going to let this slide but...not my style.

You worked with Jeff at the start of the game pre beta. And what exactly was Jeff working on? Because it is my understanding Jeff is not a coder...that he is the producer and that he is the guy who developed all the Database stuff, just as he did back in the day with EHM and Riz.

So...has Jeff become a coder? Because to me....the databases are not the game. The coding makes the game, and thus the guy who was doing the coding right from the get go is the guy who is the father of the game....and the database people, although important to the marketing of the game, are not the guys BEHIND the game.

This is all semantics to me. Clearly the guys behind the game and working for $ on it are Seb, Jeff and Malte. Plus that publicity guy Brad who shows up once every month or so.....It does not matter to me who the HEAD GUY is or whose baby it is. Just pointing out the flaws in logic that this would have even come about if Jeff was the only one there, since he is not a guy who is familiar or trained in code to my knowledge.

Correct me if I am wrong please...I have never thought Jeff was doing any programming, just being an ideas guy and database guy. (Not that this is unimportant..it certainly is)

but again, Sebastien has stated he had the beginnings of a game and took it to OOTP and they brought his game in to their fold, while he was working on iOOTP...so clearly the game was his baby. And Jeff then came in to work on it with him.

[nino33]

As for not caring much, that is quite an assumption you are making since you have never met me and you are taking that from one post on a message board. My point with that statement is essentially, "If they get the game running right and improve it that is great. However, if they don't improve it, the game will go away and that is that. I am not going to lose any sleep over it as I am, at the end of the day, just another consumer and have no vested interest in the profitability of FHM"

Maybe it's just semantics, but I think anyone who cares about getting a better hockey sim to play (i.e. better than EHM) would have a vested interest in FHM being profitable just so game development continues; many people, including myself, have bought FHM to "support the project" though we still rarely or never actually play the game...

[B. Stinson]

Are you sure FHM was Sebastian's game?

While Malte is mentioned too Sebastian said in 2011 "The project is based on a game I did before I joined OOTP Developments." http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ockey.html

You are indeed correct. Thanks for clearing that up; I'd been running all this time under the belief that FHM was originally Malte's project. Not that it really matters in the end, but still...

[cyclone]

It's been a poor production since the early beta process. It might take this group 3-5 years to figure things out. can a small company really afford to wait that long? Finish in last place year after year and some big changes have to happen. You can only live on promise so long- like Edmonton people start demanding, but where are our wins?

[Alessandro]

Because OOTP Baseball is a great, long-running series.

And so what? Should I support George W. Bush because the USA have the top GDP in the world?

[SkierP20]

Okay so let me touch on a few things..

1. OOTPB is a great game.. so what? - I feel like that shows the track record of the company. At the hands of Markus and the team that he put together (with the exception of the SSI debacle) they have put together one hell of a franchise, arguably the best in their genre. And when I say genre, I don't mean baseball games I mean sports management games because that goes beyond in-game play (where FM is absolutely AMAZING) and deals with contracts, free agency, trade AI and what not. OOTPB is tops in almost all of that. FM to me is on a different level just due to the sheer volume of teams and players that exist in that game. I'm playing my first version of FM with 2014, and I'm blown away, but I digress. . .

2. the iOOTP comparison - I make this comparison not to draw any similarities between the games. I point out what I do because of the way that Sebastian handled things to draw a straight comparison to how things were handled in FHM world. "I promise I'll update you and the it'll be done in this thread" followed by an extended period (months in iOOTP world, weeks in FHM world) of silence. Also, with glaring issues still existing in what Sebastian has described his baby he makes the statement that he is now working on iOOTP full-time and is only working on FHM in his spare time. The match engine is one thing but with the problems with free agency, trading, coach firing, how can this not be a full time endeavor?

The problem here is not OOTPD, it is the vision of FHM as seen through Sebastian's eyes. The knowledge of hockey has been questioned a few times and I cannot help but agree that they lack a general knowledge and feel for the game. Powerplay and Penalty Kill statistics are very hard to find. . statistics in general are poorly prioritized and laid out. It's not like you can't click on a website like Hockey Reference and see how its done.

And don't get me started on the AI. I won't even touch that disaster.

Finally, I suggested a while back that the team put out a survey to get a feel for what they consumers felt were not only broken in the game but also what is WORKING in the game. Prime example: I feel that at least from a historical standpoint they do a good job of rating players and gauging their abilities. I was by Sebastian that he felt that they had already done a good job of that. Personally, I could not disagree more.

[nino33]

1. OOTPB is a great game.. so what? - I feel like that shows the track record of the company.

A track record that took YEARS to develop, so I don't think it's very relevant to FHM's development for non-baseball fans (I suspect they care about FHM's current state, not about the story of how OOTP baseball became the great game it is after more than a decade of development; I'd also add any fan of both sports and sports sims would know that baseball is a very simple game to sim compared to hockey, and the baseball world is tiny compared to hockey...they're so different IMO that the (almost constant) praise for OOTP like it matters to FHM just makes no sense to me).

And other things may not have impressed newcomers...the OOTP boards have to much of the unhelpful negativity/hyperbole that the FHM boards do. Not all users are comfortable with the PR heavy sales pitches. The fact that there's no decent, current OOTP manual doesn't impress either.

2. the iOOTP comparison - I make this comparison not to draw any similarities between the games. I point out what I do because of the way that Sebastian handled things to draw a straight comparison to how things were handled in FHM world.

I totally understand/agree. I was following the iOOTP boards last year, and was very disappointed in how Sebastian communicated (and his communication since that time hasn't been any better). But he's a coder (the critical piece in the process!). Personally I wish he'd just stay off the boards and code.

The problem here is not OOTPD, it is the vision of FHM as seen through Sebastian's eyes.

Sebastian works for OOTPD, and many are going to reasonably feel that the boss is responsible for their employees. While many users may (and probably do) share your concerns about Sebastian's communication/broken promises & his vision for FHM it seems that OOTPD does not.

Finally, I suggested a while back that the team put out a survey to get a feel for what they consumers felt were not only broken in the game but also what is WORKING in the game.

I remember seeing your post! But I didn't think what you suggested would help, because #1 I thought "the basics" that weren't working were already well known #2 I didn't know anyone that was actually playing FHM! (and the few I read about who enjoy the game currently don't seem to represent anyone I know either)



P.S. For anyone who thinks Jeff's been in charge, check out his post from the "career totals are useless" thread last November http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/3 ... post4.html

[SkierP20]

While I agree with your hockey vs baseball analogy 100% I feel like there are some fundamental things that would translate from game to game. For one, the UI. The point was made that some want an OOTPB like UI others want an EHM UI well frankly the game is PRODUCED by OOTPD. You would expect more similarities than the ones that currently exist.

Furthermore I would expect something more in the hiring/firing department. Success can be measured outside of the match engine pretty easilly by looking at things like win/loss records total points and overall success of the team. Code or not that seems like a pretty objective thing to me. I understand the push pull but come on. It's one company. I am shocked that there isn't code sharing.

As for the survey comment I didn't expect much return from it. Frankly I feel like they were making their decisions saying to themselves "well MORE people aren't complaining so that must mean there are people who like the game." I agree with you though I mean look at this forum and how it grinded to a halt. I just feel like if there were things that worked for people they could be identified. And if there were things that weren't well they'd know better. But Sebastian feels he has that all figured out.

The iOOTP issue is one that absolutely needs to be part of the conversation if for no other reason than proof of a continued pattern of poor communication. I found it interesting though that Sebastian made all the promises and yet Brad was the one who made the announcement of the discontinued patch.

I have a sinking feeling that whenever the match engine update comes out that'll be it for 14. By the time it's released it's going to be April. If they shoot for an October or November release that doesn't leave much time.

And based on past experience with previously released patches well how can you NOT expect this one to come with its share of bumps that should probably be fixed to keep the game enjoyable?

For me the perfect game would include:
OOTP UI
EHM 2D game view
FM's player role system to he better define scorers checkers and goons for example and not just as key or core players.

Also I have always wondered two things: ARE tactics working at all? No one has ever definitively said.

And secondly if you were to clone the same NHL team for every team in the league except for their coachong staff and set the entire league to computer control would they all play the same way?

[Primis]

Because OOTP Baseball is a great, long-running series.

And so what? Should I support George W. Bush because the USA have the top GDP in the world?

Timely political commentary from Alessandro!

[nino33]

The point was made that some want an OOTPB like UI others want an EHM UI well frankly the game is PRODUCED by OOTPD. You would expect more similarities than the ones that currently exist.

I'm not a baseball fan, and while I bought OOTP14 (to support the company as part of my support for FHM) I haven't really played it (just not a baseball fan, and don't like the look of it...just like I don't like the look of FHM). While I'll accept from OOTP fans that OOTP is a great game, I just can't see the importance of it in relation to FHM. IMO they'd be better off copying/improving on EHM.


Interestingly Sebastian recently said...

"more then 2/3 of all FHM users are from outside the USA, so most likely no OOTP player. Take into account that from the 1/3 USA user not all are baseball fans, the number of FHM-non-OOTP player is even higher. So we don't build a "OOTP Hockey" but an game with it's own identity.

Of course it makes sense to get inspiration from OOTP (and FM or EHM) and we always look in OOTP first but in the end we (Malte, Jeff and I) want to make a game that as many people as possible like and not only OOTP user." http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... tions.html

[B. Stinson]

Because OOTP Baseball is a great, long-running series.

And so what? Should I support George W. Bush because the USA have the top GDP in the world?

What? What on Earth are you talking about?

[Alessandro]

Nevermind. Let's quit politics
Still I do not think that just because the OOTP crew created a "good" game (sorry, but having a lot of people playing it means nothing to me and I don't understand a Adam Oates about baseball so I will never understand if that game is good or not), they should get everything passed just cuz OOTP is good.
FM is one hell of a game, yet I do not really like the way the SI acts, also regarding the game, but not only, since they teamed up with SEGA. I do not play FM since 2009 I think...

[SkierP20]

It's been 3 weeks now since the last patch with a "hotfix" that was promised before the Match Engine patch, and another "hotfix" to follow the Match Engine patch. I'm starting to feel like they won't be releasing all three at this point. Jeff stated on the 20th that coding would be done" tomorrow" and patch release would depend on how testing went. Still, No mention of an ETA for any of it and with Sebastian's recent work on iOOTP, and effective placement of FHM on the back burner, that had to take its toll on this game.

[nino33]

Version 1.6.8 Game Update Now Available http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... lable.html

[SkierP20]

Just saw that! Glad they finally got it out. I was starting to wonder with iOOTP's release and Sebastian's silence.. Good for them. Let's see if it improved anything.