TBL Rosters v8.0 2015/16 Release Date

[CujoAC]

The last time I (overtly respectfully) asked when to expect this (sometime in August) I was confronted with snorts and told something along the lines of 'maybe this game isn't meant for you' when I admitted what most people are thinking which is the reason I bought and wait to play this game was to sim from up-to date NHL rosters. I then saw that there was a lack of volunteers helping make that happen. Patience is good and nice and well deserved until the other party stops being courteous, then the gloves come off.

It would seem ironic that rather than ask an interested party to volunteer I was given a cold shoulder and the topic was locked as even though I was especially clear I was happy with the game, which inspired my interest in the up-to date rosters, some were only capable of seeing my message as criticism. I was told I should be able to have fun without them by principle because 'everything changes every year anyway'. If a lack of volunteers is the issue there are better ways to get people than alienating paying customers on your forum. If I was being critical I could have listed a number of things I didn't mention, like the absolutely god-awful UI.

The game wasn't free, I paid via steam thinking there was a team at work here- not a bunch of volunteers, despite the fact that I would have volunteered just to be able to play it properly again. You're making money by selling this game, presumably, mostly to players who care about the NHL, not as much the minutae of some backwater Euro League, so maybe priorities should be set where they would provide you with more customers and or interest from existing customers. If getting more customers means keeping the game up to date then hire some people. If you have the year 2015 and the NHL rosters up-to-date, but you're missing some details from the dunderwhistle midget league in northern Scotland for example... Then you've got priorities all mixed up, assuming you want to stay in business. As great as 2014 was I can't play through it another time, so I'll keep this thing shelved and maybe forget about it

I think the problem here may be that you're confusing this community with the actual developer. While the developers do occasionally post here, the people building these rosters are volunteers within a larger community, not actually affiliated with the developer. Your money did not/does not go to this community (unless you've voluntarily contributed to the community on the side), it goes to the developers so the angst is a little misguided here. The developer is Sports Interactive with SEGA publishing, not The Blue Line community forums. That being said, the product site also never guarantees accurate rosters or league affiliation. Go back and read it (http://store.steampowered.com/app/301120/) and you'll see that what you're asking for was never confirmed to be a part of the product, and is instead the result of good people doing good work in their spare time, so it seems that some of your frustration may be because you weren't aware of what the product was and wasn't guaranteeing. The developer was just kind enough to make their editing tools/code accessible and open enough that people could mod it as they see fit.

Totally understand the frustration, we're all waiting for the new rosters, but the reality is that this is a community site, the rosters are being built by the community and not by the developer. Be patient and they'll hopefully arrive soon. In the meantime, try reaching out again, this community has been around a very long time and people have always been courteous (yes my post count is low, rarely post and mostly lurk but have been here for a long while ).

[riazorblues86]

c'mon guys, please be patience..the new roster will be available soon enough..once it done, you all will be appreciate all the works done by the volunteers..and one more thing, please don't argue about this anymore, its pain in the ass for them to works volunteer to make EHM better game for all of us..please respect them and cheer and giving them courage and not to condemn them..

[spumantii]

In that case, I stand corrected, i thought the NHL rosters and the game itself came from the same crew, since much of the news of both seems to come from the same few people. Let me make it clear then that I fully admire the commitment and dedication to this experience, shown by those volunteers.

That's a bit of a rude awakening with regards to the game out-of-the-box, since it seems like much more has been put into the rosters than into the vanilla game. The game is a skeleton without these rosters, which are clearly the meat and potatoes that just about anyone (would want to) expect out of the box.

It really shines a light on what this simulation engine is missing. That team is doing more to sell this game than the devs are IMO, given the state of the UI and how data is presented (and not presented, in a sensible way, am I supposed to believe this is the final sensible modern interpretation of a 2007 UI? A UI that didn't incorporate the standard paradigms we've gotten familiar with links where object is clickable, tooltips, resizeable elements, being able to open two windows, any kind of graphing or individual history? Smart sorting, tree based menu locations or generally things that aren't a click intensive eyesore? Even that existed in 2007.) these volunteers should be getting paid somehow.

The simulation code gets so many things right, it's a shame they put all that inside the chassis of a Model T. The sim code should be gutted with the 2d play engine and put into a modern windows form.

If the core of the game is presentation of data, and the muscle is all the player data, then you volunteers have clearly outdone the devs. They should be paying you, or doing it themselves. I wish I'd known this sooner.

EDIT, I guess it's licensing related, that they can't/won't do the NHL rosters. Fine. Then go re-invent last century's UI. /rant

[CujoAC]

In that case, I stand corrected, i thought the NHL rosters and the game itself came from the same crew, since much of the news of both seems to come from the same few people. Let me make it clear then that I fully admire the commitment and dedication to this experience, shown by those volunteers.

That's a bit of a rude awakening with regards to the game out-of-the-box, since it seems like much more has been put into the rosters than into the vanilla game. The game is a skeleton without these rosters, which are clearly the meat and potatoes that just about anyone (would want to) expect out of the box.

It really shines a light on what this simulation engine is missing. That team is doing more to sell this game than the devs are IMO, given the state of the UI and how data is presented (and not presented, in a sensible way, am I supposed to believe this is the final sensible modern interpretation of a 2007 UI? A UI that didn't incorporate the standard paradigms we've gotten familiar with links where object is clickable, tooltips, resizeable elements, being able to open two windows, any kind of graphing or individual history? Smart sorting, tree based menu locations or generally things that aren't a click intensive eyesore? Even that existed in 2007.) these volunteers should be getting paid somehow.

The simulation code gets so many things right, it's a shame they put all that inside the chassis of a Model T. The sim code should be gutted with the 2d play engine and put into a modern windows form.

If the core of the game is presentation of data, and the muscle is all the player data, then you volunteers have clearly outdone the devs. They should be paying you, or doing it themselves. I wish I'd known this sooner.

EDIT, I guess it's licensing related, that they can't/won't do the NHL rosters. Fine. Then go re-invent last century's UI. /rant

Again, I think you may be misunderstanding the larger situation at play. Yes, the league licenses are likely expensive and difficult to secure, that's a huge part of it, but the state of the game is due to this being a hobby experiment to gauge interest from the developer. This is not a big team and it's not really a full product. So, once again, this issue seems more that your expectations are not aligned with the reality of the project as it's explained on Steam. See steam or below and you'll see what I'm talking about .

“Eastside Hockey Manager: Early Access marks the 'rebirth' of a classic game that developed a devoted following among hockey fans between 2004 and 2007. Steam's Early Access system offers us the perfect platform to bring EHM back, allowing fans to not only enjoy the game, but also to have a direct influence on its development as we build up to a full release of the most realistic and immersive ice hockey management title to date.

Eastside Hockey Manager was 'shelved' back in 2007 because it simply didn't make financial sense for us to to continue publishing it as a 'boxed game' at that time; we were not only badly affected by piracy, we were also hit by the way retail used to work, particularly in the US. Boxed copies of the game would fly off the shelves in places where hockey was popular, but would languish in places where it wasn't – and there was no system in place for those boxes to be shifted from one State to another. Steam wasn't anywhere near as popular back then as it is now, so we didn't have a digital solution to this problem like we do now.

We have never wavered in our belief that there’s an enthusiastic and active fan base for this game which we've seen at the Blueline community (http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/) and now, using Early Access, we want to prove that to everyone else.

Getting the game into its current state has been very much a ‘hobby project’ for a few of us at the studio. Up until now we've worked on EHM in what little spare time we have (Football Manager keeps us all very busy) but now, using Early Access will give us some budget to be able to put more resources into EHM, whilst not losing any from FM. We’re doing it now because we've hired some of the people we need to cover the extra work.

Early Access will also give us an opportunity to get the feedback we need from the community to ensure that this is the game they want to play.

Finally, we need to prove that there is enough demand to justify resurrecting the series fully. Whilst this version has ‘fake’ data, we want to show that there is a demand for a fully licensed version of the game. That won’t come with this release but, if it’s successful, it means we can go to the leagues around the world and get licenses for future, annualised, versions (in much the same way that we do with FM).

And, bluntly, nothing beats a testing resource of hundreds or thousands of people. Your help in this regard is greatly appreciated.”
Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“We’re not completely sure on that just yet. But we’re talking months, not years.”
How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“Polish, polish, polish. But we’re also planning some extra features – a play-off tree view will be rolled out in the first update, with some major improvements to player progression following in the second. At some point in the Early Access cycle we also plan to include a network game mode and some further playable leagues. And we’ll be looking at features that you, the community, suggest – if we like them (and they’re technically achievable) then we’ll do what we can to get them into the final game.”
What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“It’s fully playable and includes 11 leagues from around the world and 13 international tournaments. At the moment the game is English-language only.

We haven’t seen any crashes for a while, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be a few when people start to play the game for the long-term on a variety of different hardware configurations.

If and when we do find any crashes we’ll roll out updates as soon as they are fixed. We also plan to put out a regular update every two weeks (on Thursday evenings, UK time).”
Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“Yes. It will be cheaper during the Early Access period to thank people for helping to steer the game in the right direction.”
How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“We want as much feedback and as many bug reports as possible, please. We were one of the first ‘community driven’ studios – our fans have been directly involved in shaping our games for 20 years – and we want to keep this going both through our own forums (at http://community.sigames.com/) and here on Steam for EHM. We will always make the final decision on what does and doesn’t go into our games, but we treat every idea from the community in exactly the same way as we treat ideas that come from people within the studio.”

[spumantii]

I see. So this is in fact just a sidecar, an appendix of a game.
I don't think there's any doubt about the demand. If there was, the NHL would not have given the rights to EA. Half the people I know that play the EA games play them to be a GM.
I know it's early access but this part was news to me:

How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“Polish, polish, polish. But we’re also planning some extra features" (since when is a playoff tree considered an 'extra feature'?)

That's why I'm disappointed. You can polish that UI until your arms fall off and it's still going to be rough. If they thought looking at player data and *having* a playoff tree were extra features it says a lot about what they think is needed to get the sales they need to convince the NHL. You kind of need to use the full arse.

So in other words, what we're going to get in the end is half the arse, for half the price because we were excited and vulnerable, since I doubt people will pay full price for a half arse, and the NHL won't see the sales they think they need as a result- great plan! Win now mode = failed rebuild- sounds familiar? Haha, but all of that is another topic.

[CujoAC]

I see. So this is in fact just a sidecar, an appendix of a game.
I don't think there's any doubt about the demand. If there was, the NHL would not have given the rights to EA. Half the people I know that play the EA games play them to be a GM.
I know it's early access but this part was news to me:

How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“Polish, polish, polish. But we’re also planning some extra features" (since when is a playoff tree considered an 'extra feature'?)

That's why I'm disappointed. You can polish that UI until your arms fall off and it's still going to be rough. If they thought looking at player data and *having* a playoff tree were extra features it says a lot about what they think is needed to get the sales they need to convince the NHL. You kind of need to use the full arse.

So in other words, what we're going to get in the end is half the arse, for half the price because we were excited and vulnerable, since I doubt people will pay full price for a half arse, and the NHL won't see the sales they think they need as a result- great plan! Win now mode = failed rebuild- sounds familiar? Haha, but all of that is another topic.

OK, a few things because you obviously don't understand what's going on and how this industry works.

First of all, NHL is not one of the better selling sports games, and GM mode is not the #1 most used feature. If you look up sales data it's actually one of the lower selling major sports games (globally especially) and just because your friends use GM mode doesn't mean it's the most used mode overall. A great example is FIFA (a much better selling sports game), where FUT is the #1 most used mode and "career" is actually one of the lesser used modes as a result. Also, this not being an NHL or NHLPA licensed product means that the NHL makes zero profit and has zero say over what this game does and doesn't do and does and doesn't make. This is an independent product by a few people who were passionate enough to spend side time making it in order to PROVE to a larger publisher and developer that there was enough interest to make it worthwhile. Again, if you read the Steam page you'd see that they struggled with sales the last two times out, so no, this isn't guaranteed money and no, there isn't proven demand, in fact there may very well be the opposite. A business needs to measure risk, this is a higher risk product for the investment. Also, "proving sales" may not be what the NHL requires to give licensing, in fact with experience I can tell you that they'd still charge quite a lot, and it's probably a cost the developer doesn't have the funds to work with. I used to work for EA , their deal was signed with a number of factors, not just units potentially sold.

Second, the team at Sports Interactive was extremely up-front with what they were offering in this early access game, which Steam is also very upfront about. You were purchasing an unfinished product, Steam and the team at SI both made that very clear. SI was also transparent about what was and wasn't in the game and where their business stood. You seem to think there's a huge demand for this kind of product but I can tell you with certainty that it happens to be fairly niche. You also don't seem to like what they're doing and insinuating that you were misled, but you were not, you just didn't read enough about what you were purchasing. Unfortunate but not really their fault. NONE of this should have been news to you because again, they told you on the purchase page what their goals and plans were.

As for the "polish," they made it clear that if demand was there then early access would continue to roll out updates and new features, which means by the time it gets to FINAL all it really needs is polish (and by the way, you automatically get the final because you've paid to help beta test the early access, which is what early access really is). They make it perfectly clear that the money funding future features is coming from what they make releasing this as an early access title. In other words, they have little to no cash flow outside of direct sales, so if they didn't do things this way they wouldn't have had enough funding.

Anyway, this veers from the larger thread but I think it's important for you to slow down and maybe lay off the finger pointing. Everyone involved, from the developers to the community are doing their best, and everyone has been about as transparent as one could ask (and they didn't need to be!). Just sit back, wait for the update and enjoy the game .

Edit: Just wanted to add that the issue here is that you're looking at your perception as fact and that's dangerous because perception is not necessarily fact. By the way, GM mode, while my favorite, is not in fact NHL's most popular mode (and it shouldn't be with those sluggish and confusing menus!). Also, the EA NHL game experience is DRASTICALLY different from a management simulator (only). Those aren't even in the same league as far as genre or general products are concerned. There are definitely less people looking for hardcore hockey management sims than general NHL games. You're talking about a subset of what is probably already considered a niche product by the genre (so niche of niche!).

[spumantii]

I wouldn't make that assumption. Were you at EA Canada? At the same time I was? That means next to nothing. Just because I'm choosing to be critical doesn't mean I'm uninformed about anything other than what their intent for the final game was. I got as far as recognizing it as an updated ehm 2007 and that was my assumption, didn't include that it was a spin off of FA. I thought the intent was to carry this on into a full title since steam circumvented some of the issues they had earlier.

When I worked at Piranha Games we did a lot of work (just beforeTF2 and Mechwarrior) on games for Bass Pro Shops. We never developed anything before we had a client. I know that games that don't get funding don't get developed. Clients that don't have their way don't give funding, and I'm not totally on board with today's kickstarty early access-y model. There's much less risk involved than there used to be, whereby a studio had to choose to make the investment FIRST rather than second, and were immediately responsible for a well presented product. Presentation always meant as much or more than features or data. I'm speaking out of principle more than anything else when I criticize that model and frequent instances of let down when the final product simply does not materialize. Success comes after the fact. Good niche games create markets of their own. in 2007 few were talking about sandbox survival games.

If you want money, you have to impress people and it boils down to that. Even if you have pure gold intentions and the best level of passion you are still wasting your time if you put ten eggs in the simulation basket and none in the UI. I want to see the game make it to a solid final state and I hope people don't take on the other game just because of an issue as trivial as UI and data tables. This is where the halfway model fails. The initial investment is what makes a final product regardless of sales and yeah it's sad that SI wasn't able to do it without the early access bag. My steam list is full of incomplete garbage and I hope this doesn't end up that way. If you're going to bother to invest, go big or go home rings true. The halfway model does not motivate a typical developer to finish the job.

I am aware of early access status, I wasn't aware of how far they were willing to take this game, and it goes without saying the licensing would cost too much in almost any scenario except one that includes consoles. I knew that when I bought it. High risk product? This is a risk only product with that in mind. It wasn't guaranteed money before steam, the reasons I gathered were due to piracy and inventory.

I know SI isn't a big company, but how we view data in there is integral to the success of the game as I get tired of clicking that button so are others. Ten early access purchasers that get in and see a terrible interface and quit after 4 days are worth less than five full purchase buyers that get the release version, are impressed, stick with it for longer, and tell their friends.

People don't work for free, so if you have to pay more to get more then so be it. I'd be fine with paying the full price for the full game- but we will never know what that's really going to be. That's the problem with early access. I guess what I'm saying is this game should never have been started, from a business perspective, and I love that they are doing it, but I still wish for (the unattainable?) the 'next generation' feel of a fully built EHM. I don't have the data but I'd love to say that EHM with an online versing system/leagues and a modern interface (maybe even 3d game view) could compete. I'm pretty sure those are the main draws to the console NHL games but you probably know more, I was only at EA for a testing contract.

[CujoAC]

I wouldn't make that assumption. Were you at EA Canada? At the same time I was? That means next to nothing. Just because I'm choosing to be critical doesn't mean I'm uninformed about anything other than what their intent for the final game was. I got as far as recognizing it as an updated ehm 2007 and that was my assumption, didn't include that it was a spin off of FA. I thought the intent was to carry this on into a full title since steam circumvented some of the issues they had earlier.

When I worked at Piranha Games we did a lot of work (just beforeTF2 and Mechwarrior) on games for Bass Pro Shops. We never developed anything before we had a client. I know that games that don't get funding don't get developed. Clients that don't have their way don't give funding, and I'm not totally on board with today's kickstarty early access-y model. There's much less risk involved than there used to be, whereby a studio had to choose to make the investment FIRST rather than second, and were immediately responsible for a well presented product. Presentation always meant as much or more than features or data. I'm speaking out of principle more than anything else when I criticize that model and frequent instances of let down when the final product simply does not materialize. Success comes after the fact. Good niche games create markets of their own. in 2007 few were talking about sandbox survival games.

If you want money, you have to impress people and it boils down to that. Even if you have pure gold intentions and the best level of passion you are still wasting your time if you put ten eggs in the simulation basket and none in the UI. I want to see the game make it to a solid final state and I hope people don't take on the other game just because of an issue as trivial as UI and data tables. This is where the halfway model fails. The initial investment is what makes a final product regardless of sales and yeah it's sad that SI wasn't able to do it without the early access bag. My steam list is full of incomplete garbage and I hope this doesn't end up that way. If you're going to bother to invest, go big or go home rings true. The halfway model does not motivate a typical developer to finish the job.

I am aware of early access status, I wasn't aware of how far they were willing to take this game, and it goes without saying the licensing would cost too much in almost any scenario except one that includes consoles. I knew that when I bought it. High risk product? This is a risk only product with that in mind. It wasn't guaranteed money before steam, the reasons I gathered were due to piracy and inventory.

I know SI isn't a big company, but how we view data in there is integral to the success of the game as I get tired of clicking that button so are others. Ten early access purchasers that get in and see a terrible interface and quit after 4 days are worth less than five full purchase buyers that get the release version, are impressed, stick with it for longer, and tell their friends.

People don't work for free, so if you have to pay more to get more then so be it. I'd be fine with paying the full price for the full game- but we will never know what that's really going to be. That's the problem with early access. I guess what I'm saying is this game should never have been started, from a business perspective, and I love that they are doing it, but I still wish for (the unattainable?) the 'next generation' feel of a fully built EHM. I don't have the data but I'd love to say that EHM with an online versing system/leagues and a modern interface (maybe even 3d game view) could compete. I'm pretty sure those are the main draws to the console NHL games but you probably know more, I was only at EA for a testing contract.

That's all well and good but do you at least understand that your perception of the model does not necessarily mean that SI or this community has misled you or done anything wrong? I think that's where a few of us are a little puzzled by your posts. Everything was laid out before you, you chose to purchase, so if you're upset it may not be appropriate to throw it toward the community or the developer because again, they disclosed pretty much everything that seems to be bothering you up front.

As for the rosters, I think we're all in the same boat...this game is made infinitely better by the work that the people here have put into the rosters, just as the original was made on the quality of the rosters built by Riz an his original band of merry men. GREATLY looking forward to being able to start my true season with the updated . Here's hoping that they come out soon because I know a lot of us are chomping at the bit!!!!

On the side, no idea if we were there at the same time but considering how long I was with the company and the many locations I worked out of, odds are good . That's all I'll say on the matter . Enjoy the game!

[Manimal]

Spumantii, most of the stuff you are saying needs to be said on SIGames forum, not here.

As for the roster update...

[Winnipeg Geordie]

some people need to relax

and then maybe apologise

[archibalduk]

Spumantii - I think you've completely misunderstood the position with the roster updates and with the Early Access game.

Roster Updates: A bunch of us here on The Blue Line work on the rosters. This website has absolutely nothing to do with the SI Games guys. It is a website I started up back in 2004 just as a place to share addons etc. It has since grown and a group of us here have developed our own roster update each season. We all work day jobs and do the roster updating in our spare time as a hobby. Nobody pays for use of the site or the rosters - it's all free.

As for the game: Back in early 2007 the game was axed owing to a lack of sales (the low sales coupled with the cost of getting licences meant it wasn't cost effective to continue with development). Hence the demand for this game is far from guaranteed. The reason EHM has come back now is for SI Games to ascertain whether or not it is financially viable to develop a full blown game again, but this time using Steam (which means lower costs compared to 2007 when CD releases were still the norm). Hence Riz, in his spare time, has been upgrading various elements of the game (the most important of which is to make it capable of running the 2014 and, now the 2015, league rules and structures as a lot has changed since 2006/07). If the game does well enough then we may see a new game which will be worked on full time - hence in the meantime the Early Access tag and the low price point. In the mean time, many of us here are just grateful the game is back again and that we're no longer stuck with the 2006/07 rules, etc.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Thanks for the new rosters!