Russia (including all KHL teams)

[Alessandro]

I'm surprised this is the case, as I thought it was common knowledge that increased Club Budget does not work unless the salaries total close to the amount.....

I'm surprised the KHL teams don't have salaries ingame.....I understand they're not public, I just don't understand why they haven't been manually entered (using researcher judgment)


The game has club budgets, and the game has salaries.....it seems you could just use common sense and basic math - divide the total Player Budget (or just under) by the amount of salaried players the team typically has - this will give you an "average salary amount"

• Your top players (1st liners - 1st pairing D - top G) are usually going to make more than your average, some substantially more...
• Your average players (2nd/3rd liners - 2nd pairing D - regular G) are going to make close to the average, sometimes a bit more/less, rarely much more/less
• Your below average players (4th/5th liners - 3rd/4th pairing - backup goalies) should almost always make less than the average, sometimes substantially less

The game is often not the best at inputting data "from scratch" but does seem to do well if given reasonable/correct guidelines and ranges based on researcher entry...like Player Role and Offensive/Defensive Role, I don't think it's best that player salaries should be left as "0" for elite/playable leagues

Thoughts?

While you are technically right, heh, the fact is that you have to start anyway with unofficial budgets, and then go on with unofficial salaries on a researcher's guess. I think that having the game making the guess isn't that different... and AFAIK all european leagues have mostly "0" salaries.
I have manually entered some salaries for KHL players.
The game is from one hand good in calculating salaries because a lot of contracts seem very good, but many team/leagues are off, for example, I can see teams in the DEL paying 1 million dollars to players, this is redicolous, and the game doesn't (always?) respect the budget values teams have. And also another thing is that while players can have manually entered salaries, from season 2 contracts will be the same as they are with 0s now.

[nino33]

While you are technically right, heh, the fact is that you have to start anyway with unofficial budgets, and then go on with unofficial salaries on a researcher's guess. I think that having the game making the guess isn't that different...

I LOVE EHM, and I think that's well known! HaHa
And so I don't like to say this.....but I think often the game struggles to be as good as a bad researcher, and usually is at best a good researcher...the top handful of TBL researchers are all exceptional, and WAY better than the game in their decision making process

I think in general researcher inputs are superior to ingame decisions

• Some (just a few) examples of "my proof" for my view...IMO the poor game decisions are
• the reason why we still have Attributes that are sometimes excessively/unrealistically low
• the reason why sometimes a single skating Attribute will be WAY lower than the others
• the reason why there's way to many players with extreme styles (because the Off/Def Roles total 20 when the game is involved!)
• the reason Mental Attributes at times have examples that "don't make good sense" (to randomized?)

IMO I am not suggesting anything be done that I wouldn't willingly do myself...
I think "intimate knowledge" is overrated HaHa
No I don't.....but it's hard to come by, especially at the level of depth needed to do a database of over 40,000 players! when every player has dozens of Attributes! same with team/league Attributes...

But I think standards/guidelines can be created...and then with further review that increasingly focuses efforts, IMO most anyone that's willing to put the time in can be successful at editing (but it's admittedly not for everyone! HaHa) - for a lot of editing that researchers do I've already been compiling "best practices" based on what we do, and more and more feel ready to put together a Guide that is relatively "complete" (I of course need to find the time to do so! HaHa but I'm hopeful, maybe this summer)

[nino33]

The game is from one hand good in calculating salaries because a lot of contracts seem very good, but many team/leagues are off, for example, I can see teams in the DEL paying 1 million dollars to players, this is redicolous, and the game doesn't (always?) respect the budget values teams have. And also another thing is that while players can have manually entered salaries, from season 2 contracts will be the same as they are with 0s now.

Things for Riz! I think we need clear, concise explanations and examples (and saved games) and we'll get it fixed

It think it might be easier to do once Archi finishes with his Editor, and we'll know what settings might exist in the database (if any) regarding league salaries/budgets/etc

[Alessandro]

I think in general researcher inputs are superior to ingame decisions

• Some (just a few) examples of "my proof" for my view...IMO the poor game decisions are
• the reason why we still have Attributes that are sometimes excessively/unrealistically low
• the reason why sometimes a single skating Attribute will be WAY lower than the others
• the reason why there's way to many players with extreme styles (because the Off/Def Roles total 20 when the game is involved!)
• the reason Mental Attributes at times have examples that "don't make good sense" (to randomized?)

I agree 100% on attributes and you know that I'm working on pretty much any single KHL player to have attributes entered. Although most already have.
But on salaries, it's (IMHO) a different beast. I mean, we can for example, consider that a player is a great skater, or is a magician with the puck, or has stone hands. It's eas(ier) to translate it into a number.
Here you have for example a player who plays for his hometown club. Is he going to get a "hometown discount"? Or maybe the team offered him more because they wanted a hometown boy in the team? Or maybe the player is a bit older and preferred a lower contract, but with more bonuses? Also, teams differ wildly. Some teams prefer to pay a lot of money two or three players, and the rest just pay as low as they can. Other teams prefer to pay pretty much the same all their players. We don't even know how much teams pay their players in total... all we say is just pure speculation, because in (most of?) european countries, publishing salaries is against the law.
This is not the NHL, where you know everything about the salary cap, bonuses, signature bonuses. Here it's just speculation often fired by journalists who have nothing to write about and usually are fans of the rival team.

[Alessandro]

The game is from one hand good in calculating salaries because a lot of contracts seem very good, but many team/leagues are off, for example, I can see teams in the DEL paying 1 million dollars to players, this is redicolous, and the game doesn't (always?) respect the budget values teams have. And also another thing is that while players can have manually entered salaries, from season 2 contracts will be the same as they are with 0s now.

Things for Riz! I think we need clear, concise explanations and examples (and saved games) and we'll get it fixed

It think it might be easier to do once Archi finishes with his Editor, and we'll know what settings might exist in the database (if any) regarding league salaries/budgets/etc

You can be sure that Riz is well aware of all this
I think that after all it ain't easy to fix finances. Look how much work he did in those years, if it was easy to fix finances, we already had better ones (IMHO)

[nino33]

I agree 100% on attributes and you know that I'm working on pretty much any single KHL player to have attributes entered. Although most already have.
But on salaries, it's (IMHO) a different beast.

I still think a human is better than the game at making financial decisions

Here's how it can be done/what I'm thinking...
- start up a game, export the salaries the players are given by the game
- add the salaries from the ingame start to an exported-Attributes file
- sort by highest salaries, look for anomalies
- sort by CA, look for anomalies
- sort by Player Role, look for anomalies
- as desired sort by other Attributes (such as Flair), look for anomalies

This process will give a salary range (look at the lowest/highest salaries the game gives for your league) and a "league average salary"
The game will tell us what the range is, what the average is.....then we can make sure the game doesn't make any "bad decisions"

Anomalies are things like players with top 10% CAs having bottom 50% salary.....defensive players having a top 10% salary.....players with a CA in the bottom 50% having a salary in the top 25% (not all anomalies will be "wrong" and need to be fixed...on occasion some will be reasonable/understandable exceptions)

Also relevant is going to be how many players under contract teams keep in different leagues.....we need not only the range and average of the salaries to be OK, but also we need the team budgets to be high enough to allow the signing of an appropriate amount of players

This process gives concrete examples/numbers that can be passed on to Riz when needed (to facilitate fixing bugs/making improvements).....I think this method is the most likely to achieve the results we desire

Here you have for example a player who plays for his hometown club. Is he going to get a "hometown discount"? Or maybe the team offered him more because they wanted a hometown boy in the team? Or maybe the player is a bit older and preferred a lower contract, but with more bonuses? Also, teams differ wildly.

Your "real life examples" aren't significantly relevant/representative IMO because IRL most (all?) European/Russian elite hockey is not a business at all, but a subsidized (often highly) operation from outside sources.....along with the numerous teams folding, and players not getting paid, huge shifts in contract/dollar value, etc - all this can't be simulated ingame either! HaHa Also, the game is not ever considering any of the things you mention as it never knows such information, so I don't see how it hurts us much to maybe not know such information

So IMO the reality is the financial system EHM has is essentially the WORLDWIDE financial system....when you note "teams differ wildly" I'd like to see us do our best to represent that (like NHL teams have different Budgets), and not just leave it to the game/let it be done randomly



But all of this is hopeful/future talk.....
It's important IMO to discuss such things...

It's also important to realize change takes time, and at this point all we're doing is discussing

[nino33]

I think that after all it ain't easy to fix finances.

I totally agree!


But IMO we do not know what the salary ranges of different leagues are, and what the average league salaries are, and I think we should/need to.....I think for leagues we should "know" team budget ranges & salary ranges and averages (from actual testing)


There's more than enough keeping us busy presently! But someday.....

[archibalduk]

There are various financial settings for leagues and nations in the DB which will be editable in the long term once I've gotten that far with the editor. However, you can use the individual player's reputation to adjust the salary that the game will generate as the game uses this to calculate salary. However, it won't have a direct/significant bearing as other factors are taken into account (including a salary spread field in the new Finances table in the database).

[nino33]

There are various financial settings for leagues and nations in the DB which will be editable in the long term once I've gotten that far with the editor. However, you can use the individual player's reputation to adjust the salary that the game will generate as the game uses this to calculate salary. However, it won't have a direct/significant bearing as other factors are taken into account (including a salary spread field in the new Finances table in the database).

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear! Go Archi Go

[Syrjis]

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=160961

Damir Ryspayev was banned for life from KHL.

https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&source=w ... zkC_yiXnJA

[ZaZooM]

Russian leagues thrue names list (can you add it to TBL Rosters)?

TBL Rosters name: Russian Vysshaya Liga
Long name: Vysshaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Short name: Vysshaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Abbreviation: VHL
Playoff Trophy Name: Bratina Cup
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 1
Trim: Blue 1

TBL Rosters name: Russian Pervaya Liga
Long name: Vysshaya Hokkeynaya Liga - Pervenstvo
Short name: Pervenstvo VHL
Abbreviation: VHL-B
Playoff Trophy Name: Federation Cup
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 1
Trim: Blue 1

TBL Rosters name: Russian Minor Hockey League
Long name: Molodezhnaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Short name: Molodezhnaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Abbreviation: MHL
Upper age limit: 20
Playoff Trophy Name: Kharlamov Cup
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 2
Trim: Red 2

TBL Rosters name: Russian National Junior Hockey League
Long name: Natsionalnaya Molodezhnaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Short name: Natsionalnaya Molodezhnaya Hokkeynaya Liga
Abbreviation: NMHL
Upper age limit: 20
Playoff Trophy Name: Regions Cup
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 2
Trim: Red 2

TBL Rosters name: Russia U18
Long name: Yuniorskaya Hokkeynaya Liga U18
Short name: Yuniorskaya Hokkeynaya Liga U18
Abbreviation: YHL18
Upper age limit: 18
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 2
Trim: Red 2

TBL Rosters name: Russia U17
Long name: Yuniorskaya Hokkeynaya Liga U17
Short name: Yuniorskaya Hokkeynaya Liga U17
Abbreviation: YHL17
Upper age limit: 17
Foreground: White
Background: Blue 2
Trim: Red 2

[Peter_Doherty]

Igor Shestyorkin being at just over 100 CA and -7 PA is kind of crazy, he's a top 3 goalie in the KHL and a top 3 goalie prospect in the world, something to look at for the next update

[nino33]

Igor Shestyorkin being at just over 100 CA and -7 PA is kind of crazy, he's a top 3 goalie in the KHL and a top 3 goalie prospect in the world, something to look at for the next update

I'd never heard of him, so I looked him up...the hockey writers had him as 10th out of 10 prospects in October http://thehockeywriters.com/the-top-10- ... n-the-nhl/ For 2015-16 InGoal magazine had him as 50th out of 50 prospects http://ingoalmag.com/features/top-50-nh ... 16-season/


In terms of variable PA in the KHL, in 9.0b the goaltenders rated above him are Artyom Melnikov, Ilya Samsonov, Vladislav Sukhachyov and Daniil Tarasov (all at -8) & Ilya Sorokin (-14)

Veterans rated above a 140 PA are Vasily Koshechkin, Alexei Murygin and Alexander Salák (141) & Harri Säteri (163); Mikko Koskinen, Jakub Kovář, Andrey Makarov, Juha Metsola, Ben Scrivens, Alexander Sudnitsin and Niklas Svedberg all have a 135-140 PA

Along with Igor Shestyorkin Anton Krasotkin and Igor Ustinsky have a -7 PA


Perhaps Igor Shestyorkin should have a -14 PA?

[Alessandro]

Igor Shestyorkin being at just over 100 CA and -7 PA is kind of crazy, he's a top 3 goalie in the KHL and a top 3 goalie prospect in the world, something to look at for the next update

I'd never heard of him, so I looked him up...the hockey writers had him as 10th out of 10 prospects in October http://thehockeywriters.com/the-top-10- ... n-the-nhl/ For 2015-16 InGoal magazine had him as 50th out of 50 prospects http://ingoalmag.com/features/top-50-nh ... 16-season/


In terms of variable PA in the KHL, in 9.0b the goaltenders rated above him are Artyom Melnikov, Ilya Samsonov, Vladislav Sukhachyov and Daniil Tarasov (all at -8) & Ilya Sorokin (-14)

Veterans rated above a 140 PA are Vasily Koshechkin, Alexei Murygin and Alexander Salák (141) & Harri Säteri (163); Mikko Koskinen, Jakub Kovář, Andrey Makarov, Juha Metsola, Ben Scrivens, Alexander Sudnitsin and Niklas Svedberg all have a 135-140 PA

Along with Igor Shestyorkin Anton Krasotkin and Igor Ustinsky have a -7 PA


Perhaps Igor Shestyorkin should have a -14 PA?

That article about goalies at THW IMHO is not that good. I write for THW myself, and I have talked about it with the author several times. Having Sorokin behind Samsonov is a bad thing. Well, who knows me knows that I've never been a big fan of Shestyorkin. He's got good numbers in the KHL (with such a good team it doesn't mean much), but with the national (junior) teams he was good, but hardly great. Tarasov at -8 sounds crazy now, so I'll tune him down. Same for Sudnitsin and Makarov. Svedberg also I think I'll tune him down. I'd raise his CA (not too much, Sorokin is 10 times better than him IMHO), -7 sounds good to me, -14 is high but if you think it's correct then let it be.

[nino33]

-7 sounds good to me, -14 is high but if you think it's correct then let it be

I defer to you! your knowledge on the KHL is astronomically better than mine (and I started my post with "I'd never heard of him so I looked him up" HaHa); I think -7 is OK myself, but was trying not to upset Peter

I also saw that Shestyorkin signed for 3 more years in the KHL so it's not like he's coming to the NHL anytime soon (and I agree the good numbers with a good team don't mean as much); maybe in the future he'll deserve a higher PA (and those that think it's to low can always edit themselves!)

[Peter_Doherty]

I think both Shestyorkin and Sorokin are criminally underrated in this DB, they're the 2 best goalie prospects in the world imo and should probably be -9 or -15. If you really think that's too high then atleast -8, -7 is just bad.

Shestyorkin had insane numbers in the VHL last season and is again having insane numbers in the KHL now, he's on a great team but that doesn't diminish from the fact that he's playing great. His CA should definitely be 130+, probably 140+ aswell, he's among the best goalies in the KHL and i don't think that's even debatable.

[Peter_Doherty]

Can't edit so i'll just add here, don't take my numbers literal, it obviously depends on how the db is structured, but his CA should be that of a top goalie in the KHL and his PA that of a top goalie prospect in the world.

Saying that Sorokin is 10x better is just very questionable, Shestyorkin has outplayed him in both the league and the national team this season and he did outplay him earlier in his career to become the starter in the WJC aswell.

[Peter_Doherty]

Hate that you can't edit to add

It's not a big deal, i'll just edit Igor in the database manually but i really think he's incredibly underrated.
I don't see how you can even argue against the fact that he's a top 3 goalie prospect in the world, probably #1 at this point.

[Peter_Doherty]

One more thing, then i'm done for now

If the argument against Shestyorkin is that he's on a great team then the same has to be said for Sorokin and Samsonov, they are on pretty much equally good teams, especially defensively where i would rate CSKA and Metallurg higher, SKA has the better offense tho.

[nino33]

Though we agree on a lot, Alessandro and I don't always agree HaHa but I myself definitely defer to him on the KHL

Maybe you watch the KHL lots/follow the KHL closely Peter, I don't know, but I know I don't!
Via postings you definetly come across as a Ranger homer fan (even using "we" frequently when discussing the Rangers), and that does come to mind when I consider your opinion...given Shestyorkin's lack of proven history/youth I myself might consider a -14, but would never consider a -15 or -9 or even a -8

To be honest, given the average/target ranges for the KHL I was a bit surprised by the number of higher rated goalies in the KHL, but then I've always thought the KHL is overrated IRL...

[Peter_Doherty]

I watch quite a bit of KHL, not every game but i've probably seen Shestyorkin play 15 times this season.

I'm definitely a Rangers homer, but i can take a step back and look at a player fairly objectively. I don't see how anyone could rank Shestyorkin outside of the top-10 best goalie prospects in the world, it would be hard to have him outside top 3/5, and that's just using objective stats. He destroyed the VHL last season, posting historic stats for that league and now he's pretty much destroying the KHL.

Just look at his stats, how do you say he's not a top 10 goalie in the KHL? You can't, which means he should have a CA to reflect that. Potential is obviously harder, but i have a hard time looking at him and thinking he's not going to be a starter in the NHL, which means -8 is the lowest i would rate him. It's not THAT big of a deal since i can edit him myself, just wanted to share my opinions, do with them as you want

[Alessandro]

Sorokin has a CA of 138 and is the top CA for goalies in the KHL. I think that having goalies highly rated in the KHL is not wrong, considering the excellent goalies pipeline Russia has had in the recent years and seems to have.
Moreover, Nino, correct me if I'm wrong, a CA of 138 should be ok for the top goalies of the league, maybe it's even low.
Also, Peter, thank you for your contribution to the research. I'll raise Shestyorkin, but you wrote a thing that jumped at my eyes: "Shestyorkin has outplayed him in both the league and the national team this season and he did outplay him earlier in his career to become the starter in the WJC aswell."
Everyone in Russia knows that after that WJC, Bragin said "I played the wrong goalie"...
I don't really think he's a top-10 goalie in the KHL. Sorokin, Koshechkin, Metsola, Sateri, Scrivens, Salak, Murygin, Yeryomenko, Furch, Francouz and probably Kareyev are I think better.
That being said, friends, I'm a Russkie homer, and I'll be the happiest person in the world if Shestyorkin will become better than Hasek, no matter what team he plays in.

[Peter_Doherty]

Bragin really said that after this statline? Russia U20 WJC-20 5 1.98 .938, that's kinda crazy

Not sure how you have all those goalies ahead of Shestyorkin but you certainly are allowed your opinion
I just don't think we have to look further then to the stats, sadly we don't have shot location stats or 5v5/AS splits so all we can really look at is SV%, he had incredible stats in the VHL last season, pretty sure he broke records (correct me if i'm wrong.), while it's a lower league that doesn't matter as much for goalies as it does for skaters. He also posted some solid stats in the few KHL games he got. Fast forward to this season and he's #3 in SV% in the league, yes he's playing on a great team but so is Koskinen (highly rated #1 goalie for SKA before the season), he's got a SV% that is lower by 1.9, that's A LOT. Sorokin and Samsonov are also on comparable teams, as i said before, i think CSKA and Metallurg are better teams defensively, atleast evenish and Shestyorkin has about the same GAA as Sorokin but his SV% is significantly higher, so he sees more shots.

[Peter_Doherty]

Sorokin probably deserves to be the #1 goalie in the KHL given what he did last season but Shestyorkin should be very close behind.

[Alessandro]

Bragin really said that after this statline? Russia U20 WJC-20 5 1.98 .938, that's kinda crazy

Well, he didn't play well the medal round. Sorokin didn't post great stats that year, but looked more solid when it mattered. This is why I am not so anxious to rise Shestyorkin too much: he played well in playoffs only in junior hockey, in men's leagues he's yet to play.

Not sure how you have all those goalies ahead of Shestyorkin

As per the precedent paragraph: mostly experience. You'd really play Shestyorkin over Koshechkin?