Challenge 10

[bruins72]

There's just too many overrated players that start as UFAs. Either that or they're guys who can't stay healthy in the real NHL and that's why they're without contracts. I usually don't look at who is available for UFAs when I start a game but I think it's a good idea that we make it so some folks don't exploit it.

[gibson41]

I am looking forward for this, I feel like entering the new challenge, I can't get myself to work out more than one season in my EHM, so hopefully challenge will give it a new dimension...thanks b72 for nice scout reports, i think i make a fake scout with judging 20 called after you in the game...

[bruins72]

Just don't make a scout of me in the database you use for the challenge! That would get you disqualified!

These challenges really make the game more interesting, especially if you've been playing the game since it's release like many of us. It's always fun to try your hand against other players but I've found that our challenge rules and our newer core roster rules make you play the game differently than you might normally. It definitely makes the game even more fun (and sometimes frustrating). You're really going to need to play for more than 1 season to really see some of the differences though.

[gibson41]

Just don't make a scout of me in the database you use for the challenge! That would get you disqualified!

These challenges really make the game more interesting, especially if you've been playing the game since it's release like many of us. It's always fun to try your hand against other players but I've found that our challenge rules and our newer core roster rules make you play the game differently than you might normally. It definitely makes the game even more fun (and sometimes frustrating). You're really going to need to play for more than 1 season to really see some of the differences though.

I have problem starting a new game since my Blackhawks Dynasty. I always end up in November Year 1 after first couple of loses :-/, don't really know why. Do you manage AHL farm in challenge too? Because I found that very annoying for me, and I feel comfortable only with one team. It's the same for all other games I've been playing.

At first I enjoy playing it for myself, then I want to compare with other players, and this is also great oppurtinity to sharpen my skills .

[bruins72]

Everyone has the option to control their farm team or not to. It's your choice. Many people prefer to run their farm team too because you have more control over your prospects' development. It's not mandatory though.

[batdad]

I run Norfolk, but I only check on them once per week and go on vacation as soon as I have done that.

[Hypnotist]

YEp. No free agents season 1. I think that is a brilliant idea.

I've got an idea...You are stuck with the rosters you inherit and players you draft! No trades, FAs, no nothing! Sheesh.

[batdad]

Sounds good to me.


I think Hypnotist that you would like the challenges to be easier than they are? I dunno. Every time we discuss things to make it a little less easy (because winning is easy in this game) you take issue. I have no problem with that.

However, when you use the updated 07-08 roster it is pretty easy to plug holes since there are vast numbers of vets out there as UFAs. I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not with your comment so I felt the need to respond.

The idea of no free agents first season should not be a big deal. Especially when you consider that the idea of these challenge rules was to make things more realistic, with some flexibility. Well...in real life...most teams make at most 1-2 trades per year..and maybe another at the deadline. Some do none. And MOST teams sign at tops 1 UFA, and quite often none. Yes the occasional team makes a splash and does 3-4 (Colorado is always one of these) but rarely is there much turnover. 2-3 maybe 4 players tops and often the 4th is at the trade deadline.

I see no problem with being told..you start the seaosn with the EXACT roster you got when you open the game. We have not done this at this time, but I really think there is nothing wrong with that. God I even think playing 20 games with the same roster that the game opens with should be the way to go. YOur choice on who makes the top team of your 40-50 signed guys. But there you go.







And for anyone out there wondering....I am kidding about not allowed anything except starting rosters and draft picks, for the entire 7 years. But hmm....maybe I should try that. Nah, some dufus would demand a trade or not resign. Oh well

[Hypnotist]

Overall, you are just spinning your wheels. You want to make a challenge more challenging? Get out of the NHL. The NHL has too many known commodities. Anyone who has read these boards has probably learned exactly what players too get and how cheaply they come. It's how I found out. In my Columbus game (which is my longest running at 3 seasons) the team has not failed to win the Cup. In the first season, the only "cheater" player I brought in was Niitty. And I only did that because I had never used him and learned from the boards of his value. The only offensive player I brought in was Handzus and I gave up a fair bit for him (2 second rounders). The rest of the players were all mid to low level prospects for depth or role-playing/checking types. The second season, I signed Sundin when Toronto bailed on him and he and Nash tore the league up (50+G & 130+P each). Point being, I've played in the UHL, ECHL, AHL & NHL and the NHL is the easiest league to play in. Plain & simple.

I had really hoped that some of the staff would have taken up on the ECHL Challenge. That was difficult. Players you've never heard of with many more random stats thus making everyone's experience different. First team All-Star in one game can easily be a 3rd liner in another. You lose players (& sometimes staff) to higher leagues, on a whim if they are doing well. This gives you more variety & certainly more challenge. No one won the championship.

The lower salary cap I have no problem with, that I actually like. But most of the rest of the restrictions, in my opinion, simply take away what a GM is supposed to do. Which is to improve the team. We are humans playing against an AI based on (more than likely) a single algorithm. There are always going to be loopholes to exploit, unless of course, you do as I mentioned and make no-trade & no-FA rules. Sitting and clicking "Continue" isn't what I find fun with this game. Making decisions & making moves is what is fun.

[Hypnotist]

...Well...in real life...most teams make at most 1-2 trades per year..and maybe another at the deadline. Some do none. And MOST teams sign at tops 1 UFA, and quite often none. Yes the occasional team makes a splash and does 3-4 (Colorado is always one of these) but rarely is there much turnover...

Did you know that 97.3% of all statistics are fabricated on the spot? I just had to test your stats and found you are close on the amount of trades, but WAY off in your FA signings. I took a sampling of a top and bottom team in each conference.

Detroit - 10 FAs; 2 trades
Columbus - 7 FAs; 5 trades
Ottawa - 6 FAs; 2 trades
Tampa Bay - 9 FAs; 5 trades

Trade deadline sellers make more deals than buyers, but all teams added a significant number of FAs. The only FAs that were counted were players that were not the teams RFAs or UFAs. Only players who either were in another club's system or no NHL club's system were included (as per Challenge Rules). Call me anal-retentive, then check The Hockey News.

[bruins72]

So I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're taking issue with? Is the problem the restrictions on trades and free agent signing or is it really that we're using the NHL for the challenge? I understand that you'd like to see a challenge run with a league other than the NHL and I've suggested it in the past. The simple fact is that we won't get as much interest in it. It's still something we'll probably see as some point but right now just isn't the time for it. We'd have to revamp the challenge rules to apply to a different league and to be honest with you, most of the staff just doesn't have the time. Real life issue take priority. Sorry, it's a simple fact of life.

I do understand that you're disappointed that you ECHL challenge didn't get more participation, especially from the staff. Once again, it's a time issue. Several of the staff members are still working on their Blackhawks Challenge games. When you started your ECHL challenge, just about everyone was still involved in the Blackhawks Challenge, not just staff. You brought up the ECHL challenge as a filler for folks that play the game quickly. That's who played in it.

I don't have the time to go looking but I'm sure those trade and FA figures that you came up with are not indicative of all the teams in the league. I just don't see that much turnover. Sure, some teams do it. Anyhow, after running several seasons of 9 challenges at TBL (I've been around since at least the 2nd or 3rd challenge), we've seen that if we don't put some sort of restrictions, people will use the simple ways to exploit the game to get ahead. When there's competition people often look for any way to win. If that means throwing every player, prospect, and pick at a team to get what you want... so be it. It happens. We've just tried to put in some rules and restrictions to help limit that and maybe even give everyone a fair shake at winning. We instituted the last batch of rule changes because we felt that the challenges were getting boring when it was always Batdad, Catchup, and myself winning for the most part. Anyhow, all the rules do is make everyone take a slower approach to rebuilding their team. Most teams don't rebuild in one season. Is that so bad? Anyhow, the way I look at the "No UFA signings" in season one is, your roster for the season has already been assembled. The team made their UFA signings in the summer, before you took over. Using the TBL Roster Updates, there has been plenty of movement already.

Anyhow, if enough people really want to make it easier, I've got no problem with that. I'll go ahead and use every cheap exploit I can use to win. I'll sign all the big name free agents and trade my guys for draft picks, which I can then turn around and trade for better players. I can make an all-star roster before October. Will it be fun? Nope. But if that's what everyone wants, so be it.

[batdad]

Know what? I was gonna write a PM and tell you Hypno to take this issue you have with TBL to PM. But that is a waste of time.

Then I was going to make a post defending TBL decisions. But that is a waste of time.

Then I was going to tell you Detroit has signed 6 UFAs in the past year. (Rafalski, Downey, McCarty, Hartigan, Drake)but I could only find 5. Of which 2 were signed after the season began, and 2 have made little to no impact on what their roster would have been without them.

Oh wait, my comment said "Most" teams sign 1-2 UFA's per year in real life. Right. And you listed all of 4 who did more. Hmmm. Whose numbers are wrong? I betcha 16 teams signed well less than 3 UFAs in the offseason. Not of course including their own, or players who had no hope of making their roster (without injuries) and are really just farm filler. (pittsburg--Nathan Smith)

Then I was going to say: I looked at the ECHL challenge, in fact brought up the game and started it, but realized I would not have the time to do it right, and decided against it.

Then I was going to say: Well, I think someday the time will come for a Non NHL challenge at TBL, and I hope Hypno is here to deal with it. Because I Am not sure I will be.


But then I decided, Hyno just wants to vent his anger at me, and that he likes to prove batdad wrong, cause clearly batdad is an a**hole. (and trust me I know that, and I own that)

Then I decided to say:
Hypno if you do not like the challenge rules, then DON'T PLAY> you have a choice.


But I realized in the end, that the lack of agreement with Hypnotist in this thread from anyone here must say volumes. So TBL is listening to its members, not just one meber. Noone is yelling for NON NHL Challenges or easier challenge rules cept him. So we must be doing something right.


Okay so now is the time. I am putting up a poll. NHL challenge, or non NHL challenge for the next one. If NHL is voted in we will continue to make rules. If non NHL is voted, we will need to see what we can come up with. I will not have alot of time to put into it, but maybe someone will.

[Hypnotist]

batdad: If there are any anger issues flying around here, I don't see it coming from my end. I certainly do not consider myself to be an a**hole. I am simply debating my opinion. What I do take exception to is anyone, not just you, tossing around information from a standpoint of authority when in fact they are just pulling it out of thin air to support their own position. Vis-a-vis Detroit has signed Rafalski, Drake, Mark Cullen, Brad Ference, Mark Hartigan, Adam Berhoel, Carl Corrazzini, Garrett Stafford, Randy Gelech and Aaron Downey. That would be ten FAs by the new math. Neither of us quantified whether or not these FAs had any meaningful impact on the NHL roster, just that they were FA aquisitions. Sophocles once said that "It is a terrible thing to speak well and be wrong.

As for "Most teams" and these "16 teams". You are simply throwing out vague adjectives and speculative information as fact when in truth, you really have no idea how many FAs any NHL club has signed throughout this season. I'll own to that fact that this is a major pet peeve of mine and I consider it my civic duty to lay these types of psuedo-truths bare. If you would like to make this the matter of debate, I would be more than happy to do the research and see how many FAs & trades each team has made. I have the free time.

As for your poll. Very passive-agressive, but I welcome it. If nothing else, maybe it will put me in touch with others who would like to go off the grid with a challenge or two.

Bruins72: My point isn't to make the challenges easier, just more engaging. The reason I suggest moving out of the NHL for a more challenging game is because it IS more challenging. Case in point: Neither myself or joehelmer (the only two who finished the ECHL Challenge) won our division or won the Kelly Cup. joehelmer did got swept in the first round and I was soundly thrashed in the second. The reason all these restrictions are in place are due to players exploiting loopholes in the AI. These loopholes are almost non-existant in the lower American leagues thus lacking the need for external restrictions. AI GMs simply won't trade a star player unless getting one (or two) in return. Despite attempting many many possible trades, I was only able to complete 2 in the entire season. The rest was all scouting, try-outs & FAs.

Another suggestion I would make to help keep down the "6 first rounders for Sidney Crosby" type trades is to only award points if the player finishes the entire Challenge. I would think this would make most reconsider giving up that much for anyone. JMO.

Regarding the staff not participating in the ECHL Challenge. What I was hoping for was for some of the habitual Challenge winners to join and put my theories to the test and above all, raise the level of the competition. With a starting run of 4 players and only 2 finishing, the numbers are a bit skewed as everybody was getting points in every catagory.

To sum up: I'm not trolling or looking to pick a fight, I'm trying to be an active member of this community who isn't intimidated into accepting the status-quo. Anyone's opinion is just as valid as mine so long as it can be supported with fact. If I would have found that the 4 teams in my sample were more in line with batdad's opinion I would have gladly accepted it and posted those results all the same.

[batdad]

The poll is not passive-agressive hypnotist. I put up the poll to attempt to show you I was listening, which from your comments you:

1. clearly do not care about
2. are not doing the same for me.

If everyone were to vote outside the NHL I am cool with that. This is about the users here. Certainly not just me, and not just you.

there is no status quo at this site. WE are always doing things to make things

1. different.
2. better
3. what the users want (not just mods/admins/1 user want, but what everyone or at least the majority are happy with.

There are at least 4 things going on right now behind the scenes that we are discussing to add to the site, make the site more interesting again. When the time comes all will know.


As for the UFA stuff...I am dropping it. Pointless arguement when 7 guys you list are players who Detroit never intended to have in their lineup. And 2 of them have played because of injury, for all of two and twelve games. In EHM these guys are never signed as UFA's for challenges. Only stars are, which is why we have to limit them.

[archibalduk]

Hypnotist - the fact that both B72 and Batdad have gone to great lengths to discuss your views in this thread shows, in my opinion, that your views are being taken seriously. They're not spending all this time responding to and discussing your posts just to have the final say or to shoot you down; it's because they and the rest of the TBL Mods really do care about the Challenges. We (especially Batdad and B72) put hours of work behind the scenes into developing the Challenges to make them as enjoyable and competitive as possible - for new and experienced users alike. I think we've had some sort of discussion thread (such as this one here) in the Challenge Forum to find out the views of all of our users. Thus we are not just "spinning our wheels"; we're trying to take into account what everyone wants.

We actually take into consideration the views of users on virtually everything we do. Even with the new header images we asked our more veteran users what they liked and didn't like.

Ultimately, the demand in this thread for a non-NHL challenge is very small. Despite this, Batdad has gone to the effort of starting a poll giving users the opportunity to vote for whether they'd like Challenge 10 to be NHL or non-NHL. Doesn't that tell you something? It clearly isn't to be passive-aggressive. It's actually giving your views a louder voice and to see whether other users have the same view as yours. If enough users feel the same as you then we're happy to play a non-NHL team for Challenge 10. If more would prefer the NHL then we're happy with that too. Personally, I've been wanting a non-NHL Challenge for quite some time but the majority of users would still prefer the NHL.

I think we did quite a lot to support you unofficial ECHL Challenge - both by recommending it to users who were too late to join the official Challenge as well as by stickying your stats thread.

I hope you can see that we actually go to great lengths to take into account everyone's view (including yours) and that we're not trying to be aggressive to anybody. Our aim has always been to reach as happy a medium as possible.

[Shadd666]

Just a little precision for the ECHL challenge: like B72 said, all the "officials" were either still playing their Hawks challenge or too busy in real life to participate to a challenge. So that was not a big surprise. Personnally, i would have liked to join the ECHL challenge, but was having a hard time reaching the Hawks challenge deadlines, so no way i could join the ECHL challenge... And now that i could, the ECHL challenge is over Not a problem though.

What surprised me is that so few people join your ECHL challenge. Many people came to the site at that time, saying they'd like to join challenge 9, but couldn't as we were already 3 or 4 seasons in. I thought those people would have joined your ECHL challenge, which should have given you enough people involved to have a really fun challenge. In fact, i think all Mods/Admins thought those people would join your challenge, and that's why we wanted to support your challenge with stickies, ads, and such, so that everyone who wanted to compete in a challenge but couldn't join challenge 9 anymore should join your ECHL challenge. Unfortunately, it wasn't the case, and it's a bit sad. Maybe because none of those potential new challengers aren't interested yet in a non-NHL challenge, i don't know.

---

Back on topic, i'm in favor of no FAs for season 1

The no-trade for first 20 games idea is interesting, but has a little issue IMO, because if you have someone injured long-term, you'd like to make a deal quickly to replace him...

Oh and Hypno: there's no more risk to see a deal like 6 first round picks for Crosby Firstly, you can deal only 5 first round picks at a time But most importantly, challenge 9 rules say you can deal only picks of the upcoming draft AND you must keep your first and second round picks. And there's few chances you can make trades to gain enough 1st round picks from other teams to purchase Crosby or Ovechkin. So this issue is in fact no longer an issue

[Andyjayp]

Just out of curiosity... when we challenge 10 be starting.

[archibalduk]

Some time after the completion of Challenge 9 and once we've agreed on a challenge team. Once we've agreed the team there is some behind-the-scenes preparation that will need to be done - particularly with regards to setting-up the roster and trade regulations (e.g. core roster players, etc).

[batdad]

[quote]The no-trade for first 20 games idea is interesting, but has a little issue IMO, because if you have someone injured long-term, you'd like to make a deal quickly to replace him... [quote]


That is what you have a farm team for Shadd...always wanting to trade for marleau...jeez

[Hypnotist]

When I said I was a little disappointed when no TBL admins/mods joined the ECHL challenge, please don't feel that I am blaming anyone. It would have been nice to have everyone on board, but I fully understand that RL takes precedence. I fully appreciate the support given to it with the encouragement, sticky threads, etc. I am surprised as well that more people didn't participate, but I think maybe the radical differences in the talent pool as well as some of the other difficulties associated with running an independant ECHL team may have caused some to balk. One person who never submitted a set of stats posted in that forum how he did a player search with "Unrealistic Targets" filter checked and came back with no players. That may have caused him and others to say, "Why bother?" I'll answer that by saying, "Because of that challenge." I don't mean to be disrespectful to the TBL community and I do appreciate the support that was given to the ECHL challenge.

[bigargon]

I have an idea for a challenge. a Career Oportunities challenge

Where start off GMing a CHL Juniors team or a European team and work you way up to the NHL. It would be tougher to measure, but i think it could be done. In Canadian juniors start we would play CHL, ECHL, AHL, NHL. You have to perform good at each level and apply for job the next level up when there were opportunities.

Scoring might be like:
CHL
Divison Standings:
3rd 1 point
2nd 2point
1st 3 points
Divisonal playoff win: 4
Confrence win: 6
Cup win: 10

ECHL: all the above mulitply by 1.5
AHL: all the above multiply by 2
NHL: all the above multiply by 4

it would be different

[Shadd666]

The no-trade for first 20 games idea is interesting, but has a little issue IMO, because if you have someone injured long-term, you'd like to make a deal quickly to replace him...

That is what you have a farm team for Shadd...always wanting to trade for marleau...jeez

I never had Marleau! And yup, there's a farm team, so it may be a good idea all in all...

---

Bigargon: I also thought about this kind of challenge. But it would be pretty difficult to put in order. Plus, you can't be guaranteed to move up in the leagues solely based on how well you perform. You'd have to wait for someone to be fired in the upper level, and then you'd be in competition for the job, and not always be selected as the new GM. So some would progress faster in the leagues and get more challenge points thanks to the coefficient of the league than potentially more skilled GMs stucked in a lower level.

This kind of carreer game is pretty interesting for sure though! But i think it's too difficult to make a fair challenge out of it.

[joehelmer]

A career challenge's points could be based on how many years it takes to get to the NHL, or those who play the challenge must win the league and after they can, if they find a job, move on to the next club.

[timmy_t]

Please check the "The future of challenges at TBL" thread. I put some thought into a few posts on the 2nd page, and I would love it if you could give some input as well. I didn't want to double post my thoughts though ...

[Hypnotist]

bigargon: I tried starting in a low league and working my way up in EHM 2005 a couple times. Both times, the career stalled at the AHL level. In the AHL you have sooooo little control over the composition of the team that your success mainly depends on the quality of prospects from your parent club. The AHL is , by my experience, the WORST league to manage in.