Ensuring realistic results

21Legend · Post by **21Legend** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:30 pm

Hey Dabo, I just found this thread and would like to wish you great success with this project!

If I had one suggestion it would be make it possible to win with defense. Have goalies with GAA in the low 2 region. I found this really frustrating in EHM 07. Some people would rather win 2-1 than 6-5:)

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:55 pm

21Legend wrote:Have goalies with GAA in the low 2 region. I found this really frustrating in EHM 07. Some people would rather win 2-1 than 6-5:)

I would imagine this would probably come naturally with the customization. Particularly, a 'Scoring Level' slider like we saw in the freeware EHM (my personal favourite slider, for the reason you point out above).

Post by **Alessandro** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:11 am

I don't agree at all. Why should the game have sliders? IMHO the game should stick with realism...

Post by **dabo** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:02 pm

I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.

axwel3221 · Post by **axwel3221** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:23 pm

I do not like either that you can win 7-2 easily. It would be more realistic too if the games be like 2-1, 3-2, 1-0 etc.

Post by **Alessandro** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:10 am

dabo wrote:I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.

Well, in EHM it's well reflected, also because we made some leagues count assist differently (as it's IRL) - for example, in the NHL getting second assists is extremely easy, while in Russia (I can speak for Russia only as I don't follow anything else close enough, plus I made all this happen in EHM for Russia since I was its head researcher) is harder as only "true" second assists are counted. This drove players to have kind of realistic pts average in the RSL (if u look at both game and IRL there are not many players with more than 1 ppg, well reflected because of the game's mechanics and because of the different assists count)

Post by **dabo** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:13 am

What do you mean by "true" second assists?

Post by **Alessandro** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:18 pm

Well, for example:

A defenseman makes a big shot from the point. It goes wide, bounces back, a forward picks it up and scores.
This in NHL is an assist, in Russia it is not. In EHM we made all the bounces not counting as assists for RSL, which is 99% accurate.

Post by **dabo** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:45 pm

So that is not only for the second assist? What you are describing would be the first assist.

dave1927p · Post by **dave1927p** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:04 am

dabo wrote:I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.

yeah, i gotta disagree with alessandro. I think it's quite important for us to control the average goals/game, be it with a slider or better yet an actual value (or both?). What if someone wants to start a season in the 80s or 90s? Those two time periods in the nhl are completely different stats wise. Or what if someone would like to make a league [as]completely different [as possible] then the nhl where goals are harder (or easier) to come by. i feel it's essential to be able to control that aspect of the game. If possible having that value or slider change in time automatically based on the skill level or era of a league (similar to ootp.) would be great to have...seeing your league avg statistical output change based on different circumstances...

Post by **Alessandro** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:18 am

dabo wrote:So that is not only for the second assist? What you are describing would be the first assist.

Well this was an example. Just that if u plan to create the KHL or a fictional Russian league you should not count bounces and rebounds in the assist stats, or at least counting the latest one, definitely not two "bounce" assists

Post by **Alessandro** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:21 am

dave1927p wrote:
dabo wrote:I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.
yeah, i gotta disagree with alessandro. I think it's quite important for us to control the average goals/game, be it with a slider or better yet an actual value (or both?). What if someone wants to start a season in the 80s or 90s? Those two time periods in the nhl are completely different stats wise. Or what if someone would like to make a league [as]completely different [as possible] then the nhl where goals are harder (or easier) to come by. i feel it's essential to be able to control that aspect of the game. If possible having that value or slider change in time automatically based on the skill level or era of a league (similar to ootp.) would be great to have...seeing your league avg statistical output change based on different circumstances...

Well, it's his first project, IMO you are thinking a bit too much

Post by **Alessandro** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:26 am

dave1927p wrote:
dabo wrote:I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.
yeah, i gotta disagree with alessandro. I think it's quite important for us to control the average goals/game, be it with a slider or better yet an actual value (or both?). What if someone wants to start a season in the 80s or 90s? Those two time periods in the nhl are completely different stats wise. Or what if someone would like to make a league [as]completely different [as possible] then the nhl where goals are harder (or easier) to come by. i feel it's essential to be able to control that aspect of the game. If possible having that value or slider change in time automatically based on the skill level or era of a league (similar to ootp.) would be great to have...seeing your league avg statistical output change based on different circumstances...

Well, just for the sake of replying, it's not that in the 80s there were more goal cuz someone decided that. Goalies were different, the pace was different, players were different. I think that the DB and the game structure should influence the goal scoring, not a slider.
Some leagues are high scoring leagues, others are low scoring, because of the different aspects of the game. In the KHL players score less because of the different game (passing-skating game, not just bang bang and shoot, it takes more to create rushes and so on), not just because there is the concept of a slider...
In any case, in my opinion, we should not push the guy with brain cracking decisions or so. In my opinion he (or whoever else) should come out with a finished or half finished product and then start working around it, if we just throw ideas he'll never finish...

ArtVandelay · Post by **ArtVandelay** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:33 am

Alessandro wrote:
dave1927p wrote:
dabo wrote:I was thinking of having a value in the database for each league saying how much goals are likely to be scored. Some leagues are high scoring leagues while others are not. I was not planing on having a slider in the game but I guess it can be discussed.
yeah, i gotta disagree with alessandro. I think it's quite important for us to control the average goals/game, be it with a slider or better yet an actual value (or both?). What if someone wants to start a season in the 80s or 90s? Those two time periods in the nhl are completely different stats wise. Or what if someone would like to make a league [as]completely different [as possible] then the nhl where goals are harder (or easier) to come by. i feel it's essential to be able to control that aspect of the game. If possible having that value or slider change in time automatically based on the skill level or era of a league (similar to ootp.) would be great to have...seeing your league avg statistical output change based on different circumstances...
Well, just for the sake of replying, it's not that in the 80s there were more goal cuz someone decided that. Goalies were different, the pace was different, players were different. I think that the DB and the game structure should influence the goal scoring, not a slider.
Some leagues are high scoring leagues, others are low scoring, because of the different aspects of the game. In the KHL players score less because of the different game (passing-skating game, not just bang bang and shoot, it takes more to create rushes and so on), not just because there is the concept of a slider...
In any case, in my opinion, we should not push the guy with brain cracking decisions or so. In my opinion he (or whoever else) should come out with a finished or half finished product and then start working around it, if we just throw ideas he'll never finish...

I'm completely with you. I think though, that the slider concept is a shortcut to reflecting the differences you mention. I would rather those differences be implemented in a truly realistic way, but a shortcut isn't necessarily bad. However, freeware EHM implemented the sliders poorly, IMO. The sliders need to be along the lines of:

1. How tightly are games officiated - influence number of penalties called (not including fighting)
2. How much goalie equipment influences save percentage - the Garth Snow factor
3. How much clutching and grabbing is allowed - this is different, in my mind, from #1 - perhaps #1 is tripping, hooking, boarding and this one is more like interference and holding

Stuff like that.